SSF should be more rewarding to play. I'm not a masochist for pete sakes...

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scaeva_#9735 schrieb:

Sorry, gonna barge in and add my two cents...

No worries, I very much welcome the input.

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scaeva_#9735 schrieb:

I never saw it that way; I would see trade league as the default, which is what most people would want as they come in into the game. Then it would make SSF a mode for more advanced players because randomness would require stronger knowledge of the game either to 'target farm' (where applicable) or to class/ascendency to deal with the randomness. I never faced it in the scope of solo player fun.

I would agree with you to the extent that I do believe SSF should have an element to it that rewards knowledge of the game... Although I believe this is inherent to trade league as well. We see the reward associated with those who understand theory crafting versus those who don't for instance. We have players that strictly sit in a hideout majority of the time making divines upon divines whilst many struggle to earn a divine while mapping.

I guess, I also wouldn't want to detract from the joy advanced players have in SSF either. Although, perhaps the gap between rewarding knowledge and the ease of access in my opinion is unbalanced. I'm glad you brought that up cause I hadn't actually thought about the correlation between ease of entry vs knowledge reward systems, thanks.

As for the randomness. I think GGG missed it's calling for being the #1 gatcha game in the world! Cause the way they think, I have no doubt in my mind they'd beat genshin impact lol.

"

It would indeed help to have trade recipes like the chaos orb one available in PoE1, its even good for GGG as they sell more stash tabs, this is a very positive take.
The crafting bench is also another great take to be able to craft and more deterministic, albeit less powerful gear, this could cover the current issue with mid-tier gear in cases where economy goes wild or in SSF. This is very good thinking.

"

--for example one of the chaos orbs recipes from vendors requires a full set of armor and weapons to trade for one chaos orb.
This would be a perfect way for them to sell tabs, as when you reach T14/15 chaos orbs are important, getting all the useless items from the floor to trade for recipe chaos orb, stash tabs are required :)

I agree with you... If there were more options for vendor recipes. Chaos orb vendor recipe like you said... The ability to craft mid-tier gear...

I remember I purchased a few stash tabs for this very reason years ago. Where I did the chaos vendor recipe. Same for the 6 socket gear for jeweller's orbs.

I've even tried to get into theory crafting and I enjoy PoE but my goodness theory crafting gives me a headache. Alch this, essence that, fracture, annul, exalt slam, now corrupt... Like omg I'm spending more time watching youtube guides on how to craft gear than actually playing the game. It's like a deep rabbit-hole of despair filled with 70% delirium.

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scaeva_#9735 schrieb:

Target farming options are also good, most activity loot is already under a sort of target farming by tablets and activity... but still there could be some improvements for world drop uniques. There's also the target farming available through Local Knowledge, and this is probably flying under the radar, but it could fix a lot, for example Tecrod's Gaze, if depths take the biome from the map.

That is true, I didn't take into consideration that Pinnacle boss farming is very much viable. [EDIT] Although, I will admit that sometimes league-mechanics are just not a persons cup a tea but that's just life... [/EDIT]

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scaeva_#9735 schrieb:

Thats where things complicate, the game has been designed as a server authoritative game, this complicates offline play... What they could do (I never tested private league) is add more customization to private leagues and dont allow migrations. This could probably get them some extra money and allow players to tailor their experience to how they want to play the game, options like drop rates, weight on gear, etc... This sounds like a solution that could be commercially strong and very interesting for users. I would not mind to participate in such private leagues and contribute to cover the costs, it could be a fun experience after the first month of the league.

Ya it's true offline mode just won't happen but a non-league option... One can hope. I would very much not want GGG to monetize a custom SSF mode haha. Although I understand there needs to be incentive for them. Just like you have non-league characters that don't get reset right. If they could just allow us to have a more casual SSF option there. It wouldn't impact ladder and it would be completely removed from the concern of migration between SSF and Standard. [EDIT] I realised you got non-league standard but like who plays that so... but even if that was an issue just remove the button for migrating.[/EDIT]

Mind you they are barely keeping on things in regards to PoE2 so far fetched idea lol. I still don't have 90% of my mtx updated into PoE2!

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scaeva_#9735 schrieb:

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Weaver#3527 schrieb:

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vezon#2373 schrieb:

I'm more of a casual gamer, and for me the trading system just kills the game. It's EXTREMELY unbalanced of what can I get from the market vs what I find or craft spending the same amount of currency. And the problem the items found on the market just broke the game, it becomes orders magnitude easier for me. I like the challenge but not at hardcore level. I generally finish the entire campaign in most cases with only 2 items if not one per category (ignoring the first filler ones). That's how rare a good drop presents itself, and not for lack of trying(I spend most of my exalts). The second I touch the market the game changes. My damage and defense skyrockets. This is generally done when I get to endgame. After that everything boils down to farm currency and by new stuff and I get bored like 2-4 days. Being a casual gamer I will never get to extremely high level of maps and builds and farm like crazy and sell shit load of stuffs.
That's why I would have enjoyed the SSF mode with a little better crafting drops. I'm perfectly ok to lock that account mode. Make a huge warning I don't care, I don't want a bigger challenge, I just want a more enjoyable game for me.

For me, and I repeat for me, the trading system it sucks out a lot of enjoyment, the moment I touch it I can't be happy for my loot, for my craft, I can never be hardcore enough to compete with the market.

It's should be a really easy mode to implement.
PLEASE JUST LET TRY IT OUT GGG.

Thanks

IMO the reason they won't do it is - presumably - a large portion of their revenue comes from stash tabs. If you don't need to trade to get currency, you won't need to pick up nearly as much stuff, and you won't need nearly as many tabs. You also won't need to buy any async trade tabs.

This is a cynical take but I don't see how it can't affect their decision to some degree. Keeping SSF as an extreme challenge (always open to migrating to trade league so they can entice you to buy tabs) seems to be their angle.

Yes. but comparing to PoE1. for example one of the chaos orbs recipes from vendors requires a full set of armor and weapons to trade for one chaos orb.
This would be a perfect way for them to sell tabs, as when you reach T14/15 chaos orbs are important, getting all the useless items from the floor to trade for recipe chaos orb, stash tabs are required :)

Seems to me they are passing a good opportunity to sell stash tabs... This alone would be a great help to people starting the game (thus more sales).

This does seem like a good solution!

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SaintLessLegend#6078 schrieb:

[EDIT] I realised I read what you said incorrectly. Moved most of the cut out stuff below[EDIT]

I would like to re-iterate what I said cause like I said I misread what you said but feedback by definition is:

"

information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc. which is used as a basis for improvement.

Thus,

"

-information(experiences) about reactions(opinions) to a product(PoE -> SSF), a person's performance(time-investment + efficiency) of a task(progression -> SSF), etc. which is used as a basis for improvement.

Had to hit it with the triple combo haha.

I would be happy to just have an SSF in non-league that allowed me to choose the difficulty rating(drop rate %...). In D2R I can do that with an offline character, set the difficulty scaling which in turn allows me to essentially up the difficulty and drop rates.

For me an SSF at the core of it's foundation should be a self-driven economy, always. Difficulty scaling is a vanilla-plus feature. So I don't want to change the core foundation of PoE... but I also want to at-least point out the flaw of balancing SSF in PoE2 around a trade-driven economy.

Personally I don't believe SSF is "successful" per-se. It's more like Ruthless mode in my opinion. It doesn't matter if it is successful in large. You will always have a faction of people who enjoy that kind of mode regardless...

Genuinely I never expected change in PoE1 but with PoE2 being that fresh slate and GGG saying they wanted to have it cater to a newer audience, I just wanted to put my two cents in. I can at minimum say I tried, ya know.
---------------------------------------
Rearranged things a bit so just ignore the below sections but ill keep it as to not hide what I said ya know. Although I miss read what you said

[IGNORE]
I don't want them to change the core foundation... Although, I think more people would enjoy participating in SSF if it was balanced around a self-driven economy. People like parents or those who maybe don't have that kind of time to invest into this kind of SSF.

I really think people are forgetting that GGG wanted to keep the depth of PoE1 as much as possible but they also wanted to make it easier for newer players to get into the PoE universe. I think PoE1 having that HC type of SSF is fine but PoE2 could potentially enable others who don't have that kind of time to enjoy a mode like that.
[IGNORE]

No worries, I don't mean any hate by anything. Though I am overall against your proposal.

I can understand your perspective and can definitely agree that single player focused games should generally have smoother progression etc. I just argue that from day 1 GGG has said they set out to make a ARPG with a player driven economy as the central pillar. While things can, will, and do change in a sequal and during EA, I'm of the strong opinion that that pillar of trade-first is not one of them. Obviously pretty heavily biased since I'm a trade-Andy. So to me this suggestion is hyperbolically similar to giving feedback on Stardew Valley that it really needs to be a first person wave shooter. 😛

If I thought this suggestion wouldn't have an overall negative effect on the trade league, I'd support it. But I don't really believe that wild be the case. If better loot is available in a different mode, some number of people will be drawn to that mode, including some that would normally participate in the trade economy. The better the loot options are and the more people it draws away from the trade economy. The more people leave trade, the weaker the economy gets, and the more enticing the loot buffed mode becomes. My concern, which I believe is shared by GGG from the myriad of interviews I've watched over the years, is that allowing this suggestion would be the beginning of the death spiral of trade. GGG even mentioned not having SSF specific achievements in the announcement for it that I linked earlier, specifically so that there wouldn't be any extra incentive for this mode that would pull away trade league players.

Offline mode also pretty much won't ever be a possibility either, since GGG has secrets in the game people still haven't figured out and they like keeping it that way. Also server authoritative architecture is just, the only option really. The less the users game client actually knows about what's going on the better. 🤣

Private leagues with increased drop rates, even if they never transfer to a shared league, sounds like p2w to me and would probably get the community in an uproar.

There's also an argument to be made for longevity of enjoyment through the RNG and chase items. If you just 10x or 100x the drops people are going to be finishing and quitting that much quicker. Of course it's a casino sim, most games are just some form of skinner box in disguise, that doesn't make them inherently bad things.

Overall the main things SSF needs are things we pretty mutch know are coming to the game anyways. Like tarot cards for target farming, and they've already added some vendor recipes for like all res or all attr jewellry through the Reforge bench. So on that front the main problem is just that it's an unfinished game rather than that it's a trade focused game.

Oh and from the ignore section it sounds like maybe you did read my comment right the first time? Haha who could say. Nbd either way.

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2Old4This#3461 schrieb:

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KaosuRyoko#1633 schrieb:

For general reference:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1823776

"

It's important to stress that the expectation is that most SSF characters do turn into regular characters eventually. Some players just last longer than others before they decide to party up or trade. For example, you might play to level 20 before you decide to trade for a rare item that triples your killspeed. Your friend might play all the way to low maps before she wants to start trading. These scores of level 20 and 70 respectively would be recorded on the SSF ladder.

Goals For Implementation:
To cleanly enforce the SSF ruleset.
Players can easily opt-out characters or their entire league progress (masters, atlas, etc) at any time that they want to start trading or partying.
To be an optional mode. For now there are no incentives for playing other than additional challenge and bragging rights.
We do not want new players to choose SSF unless they know what they're doing. Despite the addition of this mode, Path of Exile is still designed and intended to be multiplayer with partying and trading.

So, even GGG did not expect new players to go SSF, or for other players to stay in SSF, even back then.
GGG expected players to enggae with trade, even if they started in SSF
Why not add a new, non-punishing SSF mode?
You know, League, or SSF, or a 3rd, boosted SSF that disables any transition to trade?

I think it's unfortunate that a player would feel the need or be compelled to trade when it's clear their initial goal was to be SSF. I understand those who just wanted to see how far they could get then swap... fair enough.

Although, GGG did mention that they wanted PoE2 specifically to allow for newer players to have an easier time getting into this type of game. Acknowledging that PoE1 does deter many due to it's difficulty and/or complexity.

For me SSF not being for new players is unfortunate. What I mean is the barrier of entry not being more new player friendly. I wouldn't want to impact or detract from the depth or fun more advance players have in SSF. But there are plenty of people who for whatever reason. Call it stubbornness or preference... but they want to feel the joy/pride of creating their own character/builds perhaps.

I actually saw something similar in nature with a brand new player I met some leagues ago in PoE1. We teamed up for that league only but he was adamant on creating his own build etc... I warned him and encouraged him to follow a build guide but he insisted on doing everything himself as much as possible. Although inevitably he hit a wall and frustratingly came to the realisation that if he genuinely wanted to progress any further into the endgame and claim the league rewards... He'd have to follow a build guide.

The point is he genuinely wanted to do everything on his own. There are many who would prefer to simply play the game without being punished for enjoying an SSF-style. Nor feel like it's gate-kept with the requirement being, you need to be an experienced player.

I like the third option you gave. I'd 100% play a more chill casual SSF mode. Like dude I'm not old but I'm at the age where I am getting too old to give a damn about pride and the competitive nature of games (i.e. ladder, ranks in csgo, etc.). At this point I just want to sit back relax and enjoy building my own character. Find my own items and theory crafting can burn in a hole but I like what scaeva_ said about mid-tier crafting...

[EDIT] I hadn't looked at the link but I did after...

I want to say that GGG can do design SSF to be however they want; It's their game, right. Although as I have pointed out. I believe that balancing SSF around a trade-driven economy, rather than a self-driven economy in regards to drop rates... Is a flawed design. Whether people enjoy it is another thing. Despite the hate Ruthless mode got. There were still a minority that enjoyed/participated in it.

So I do get it and this part:

"

We do not want new players to choose SSF unless they know what they're doing. Despite the addition of this mode, Path of Exile is still designed and intended to be multiplayer with partying and trading.

In my opinion, I vehemently am apposed to this way of thinking. That thought process in my opinion is reserved for things like HC type modes. There is a reason we call it the standard league. SSF is an added challenge yes but it's the vanilla to that category. HCSSF is what you would assume is for those who have the experience/knowledge and wish for a greater challenge; vanilla-plus. Just like how we got NG+. Clearly you don't expect someone to just jump into NG+. I'd go as far as to say NG+ is a perfect example of why SSF is perfect for new players in concept.

Just like when you play Elden Ring, Dark Souls or other souls-like games. A new player learns everything on their own. Their builds and items they use often are of their own design. It's only when they get further in the story and develop that experience that they may wish to delve into NG+ or even up the challenge with self-imposed restrictions. Perhaps they'd like to try a different playstyle swapping from magic to melee...

My point is, denying someone the joy of self discovery because of the ego of you need to be "knowledgeable" and gatekeeping a mode essentially is in my opinion a flawed and poor way of thinking about it.

[EDIT] You wanna know what the best part is about the NG+ and Souls-likes analogy I used. Even with a self made build... those players can beat the entirety of the game, hmmm. Imagine a new player trying to do polaric invitations in PoE1 or Maven on a self made build, HA! goodluck! Imagine a new player with a self made build doing T3 deli in PoE2 or Uber arbiter, GOOOOOOODD LUCK!

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SaintLessLegend#6078 schrieb:

Just like when you play Elden Ring, Dark Souls or other souls-like games.

I thought about it after comparing SSF to these singleplayer game such as Dark Souls...

It would stand to reason that PoE' standard would be the base in which a comparison is made. I just wanted to clarify my thought process.

Standard, revolving around a trade-economy does not in essence play the same as a Singleplayer game. Where as SSF at it's core is a self-driven economy. That matches how Singleplayer games function at the very core of things.

So SSF can be a multiplayer concept, where you say I'll do it on my own for add difficulty but at the core of it that solo gameplay is not too dissimilar to how something like a Souls game functions.

Perhaps I am wrong for constantly comparing SSF to a solo-singleplayer design concept. I get SSF is connected to an online MMO. Why it is not a one-to-one comparison. Although I can't help but feel that there are many who enjoy ARPGs such as PoE. Whom are compelled to play PoE due to the nature of it's build diversity, vast skill tree among many other things. Despite not caring for an online mode.

I feel the idea that in order to enjoy an online-ARPG such as PoE. I have to enjoy MMOs or I need to view PoE as an online-based game(with co-op being expected) in order to enjoy it... Although the vast majority of players do play solo. Many play games like WoW or GW2 solo. As I've said before, forum posts to youtube reviews exist specifically to express the solo-viability of a given mmo or online game.

Why I personally think it's a fair comparison to make in regards to SSF and my Dark Souls analogy in the prior post to this one. But maybe it's not a fair comparison... at the end of the day.

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KaosuRyoko#1633 schrieb:

I just argue that from day 1 GGG has said they set out to make a ARPG with a player driven economy as the central pillar.

100% I see that, and I get it. GGG can do it as they wish right. I just wanted to put in my two-cents. I genuinely didn't expect this many people to even reply to my Post...

"

There's also an argument to be made for longevity of enjoyment through the RNG and chase items. If you just 10x or 100x the drops people are going to be finishing and quitting that much quicker.

I agree with this, I would assume that's why a holy grail run is so much fun for some people. I wouldn't expect any things like 10x or 100x kind of stuff. Although I think it's completely viable for them to make a non-league iteration of SSF.

Hear me out and tell me what you think.

You got standard league + SSF. Nothing changes. Rewards and new league mechanic is locked behind that door.

Now in non-league you got the SSF window. You got HCSSF, Standard-SSF(same as league SSF) but now you have Custom-SSF.

IDEA 1: In custom mode you'll uniquely have access to a new slider feature. It's as easy as changing a loot filter or adjusting the volume and takes affect immediately. This slider goes from DEFAULT up to a limited #%.

IDEA 2: The custom mode acts similar to how we have a loot filter. Allowing us the players to genuinely create a Loot-drop-rate filter. Enabling us to make it as easy or difficult as we desire.

So if you are super HC in IDEA-2 you could make it so no fracturing, Divines, etc... can drop. Limiting you to the more basic currency. OR you could make it so only Divines dropped. Meaning you can't really craft but you have the ability to reroll the numbers on gear. Giving you that RNG feeling of is this loot I pick up any good. Then you could use the reforger to try and get better rolls.

Or maybe you love the gameplay loop and even the theory crafting of PoE but just genuinely have limited time to play. Maybe you are a parent or a College/Uni student but don't want to feel the stress of that time-investment...

This would still encourage players to play trade-league BUT now players after they get bored of trade league would have something to fall back on. In my opinion this would increase player retention and technically lead to higher probability of sales being made for longer. Just my opinion I can't predict the future lol.

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KaosuRyoko#1633 schrieb:

Overall the main things SSF needs are things we pretty mutch know are coming to the game anyways. Like tarot cards for target farming, and they've already added some vendor recipes for like all res or all attr jewellry through the Reforge bench. So on that front the main problem is just that it's an unfinished game rather than that it's a trade focused game.

I think you are right on this for the core of SSF as it is right now. At least this is more important than my IDEAS I gave in the prior response.

The reforger is nice but slamming jeweller's orbs or orbs of fusing to get a six-link/socket on gear is more exciting, imo. I rarely use the reforger cause it's just a waste of time 9/10s for me. It's not that it isn't useful I just feel like the gold for all three are worth is more useful than RNG rerolling. I'd rather gamba with the gold if you get what I mean. In SSF of course makes more sense but still. It gets tediously boring after awhile.

You know what I did this trade league. I bought cheap Breach-Catalysts. Reforged them. I did 200! NEVER DO THAT MANY so slow lol. Still made like 200+ ex which was nice though.

I still would like to see a proper crafting bench similar to PoE1. Maybe we get our recipes through killing bosses for instance... As well the chaos vendor recipes.

Maybe I am a bit biased cause I am used to the Trade-League, having that ~150MF etc... So I "feel" like exalts drop enough. Yet I think one of the best things about PoE1 is that those useless rares can be put to use.

but I think you are right with div-cards coming eventually, hopefully. I really, I PRAY we get Harvest + Harbinger as well. My two favourite's of all time. I know there will be lots of love for Delve as well. There was a part in Act 4 where I had this feeling towards a certain areas with those rocks and that sulfur kind of appearance... Just screamed Delve to me.

Not sure if you remember when we had the Delve only for two weeks I think. I think this was when we had the whole Delve only for the first time if I remember correctly. My god, GGG could of released PoE2 as just delve and I bet they would have been just as big! Imagine doing Harvest or Abyss in the Delve... muahahaha! I remember I played a boneshatter build, fun!

You know what we are missing as well, the Atlas tree. I miss being able to block certain league mechanics I didn't enjoy very much. I get that will most likely change by 1.0 release but bit frustrating. I wish I could ban azmeri from ALL my maps! Don't even get me started on those *insert any curse word*!

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SaintLessLegend#6078 schrieb:

the jest of what I am saying

Couldn't have put it better myself.



But seriously though.. as an ssf player myself, the idea that i should be "rewarded" for playing the mode makes little sense. I'm playing it for a harder experience. The whole damn point is to prevent me from getting every piece of gear I want and force me to use what I can find and scavenge. If I can just easily obtain everything myself then what the hell am I even on ssf for? Might as well just play trade and buy the items.

So in general, your entire complaint is the complete antithesis of what ssf is and who it's for. I'm sorry that you can't keep up with the crazy divine inflation, sound frustrating. But don't go try and ruin ssf just to fix whatever issue you have.

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DreamAgain#4820 schrieb:

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SaintLessLegend#6078 schrieb:

the jest of what I am saying

Couldn't have put it better myself.



But seriously though.. as an ssf player myself, the idea that i should be "rewarded" for playing the mode makes little sense. I'm playing it for a harder experience. The whole damn point is to prevent me from getting every piece of gear I want and force me to use what I can find and scavenge. If I can just easily obtain everything myself then what the hell am I even on ssf for? Might as well just play trade and buy the items.

So in general, your entire complaint is the complete antithesis of what ssf is and who it's for. I'm sorry that you can't keep up with the crazy divine inflation, sound frustrating. But don't go try and ruin ssf just to fix whatever issue you have.

No one is suggesting this hypothetical SSF mode let you "just as easily obtain everything yourself". Even very SSF friendly ARPGs don't let you do that and it's never as easy as just typing in the item you want and trading for it.

Also no one wants to take away your miserly SSF experience since the new mode would obviously be locked and unable to transfer to trade.