What happened to Engaging Combat? Video Feedback.

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ShiyoKozuki#4168 schrieb:

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ShaDarkLord#6528 schrieb:

For the game to actually feel and play like meaningful combat, GGG would need to:
1. Shrink map sizes by 2–3x.
2. Cut monster density by 5x.
3. Remove all the stupid “rideable chickens”.
4. Remove screen-clearing mechanics like Heralds.
5. Rework mob AI so each enemy actually has distinct attacks and frames.
6. Remove all forms of speed modifiers from mobs.
7. Adapt single-target skills so they’re actually viable.
8. Remove the constant light-stun chains.
9. Get rid of dumb one-shots like “something exploded under my feet and instantly killed me even though I had res capped and 10k HP.”
10. Get rid this visual clutter

Or admit that you can’t make this game meaningful anyhow and just accept poe 1,5 meme

Literally do not understand how roa mount is even in the game.
There is no world in which you can have MOUNTED COMBAT THAT INCREASES MOVEMENT SPEED In a game with slow moving characters and tactical game play.
Delete it entirely.

While I'm agree with most of the above, i think roas looks pretty cool, probably they can make them just not giving much speed(or don't give speed at all)? more like Kled from LoL? He isn't giga fast when he is mounted, but he has some pros and cons from using it.
They kinda could give something like temporary life while mounted with the huge accuracy or range penalty so you'd have to build around it to negate its downsides.

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IonSugeRau1#1069 schrieb:

Look, I've said it before to that other guy. That's your opinion, and it's not what this thread is about.

Objectively, combat is not good nor engaging right now and that's what GGG advertised PoE2 as having.

Dead wrong.....it is NOT an objective fact. That is YOUR opinion, just as much as anyone else's. Yet you continue to try to present it as objective fact and refuse to entertain ANY explanation to the alternative. There are many folks out there that would say that combat in PoE 2 is ABSOLUTELY engaging. That's why they continue to play: because they are engaged.

However, despite our disagreements, I do AGREE with your opinion that combat right now in PoE 2 is not engaging. Combat in PoE 1 is also not engaging. At a certain point in your development, both games become "how can I make a build to turn off my brain and blow everything up?". In my opinion (NOT objective fact), that is not engaging combat. Act 1 boss when it was first released was engaging combat. Even the encounter with the ritual dude in that level 11 area was engaging combat. It kind of still is.


Where we vehemently disagree is GGG's ability to MAKE it engaging through patches, over a complete redesign.

But also....you continue to try and conflate "engaging" with "fun", which is a MASSIVE mistake. First you need to define engaging: then you need to define "fun". And then, after doing that, you need to recognize that both of those things are ONLY your opinion and not objective fact in the least.

For example: I actually find the non-engaging combat MORE fun. That's why I continued playing POE 1 for 13 years. That's why I played D2 before that. That's why I played Last Epoch. That's why I played 90% of the games I choose to play. Because creating a build that can massively destroy everything in nigh-god mode is my idea of fun. But I specifically avoided saying that because then the entire discussion because "of course you say xyz, you like the game that way!", and all evidence and descriptions get completely ignored.

"Fun" has no business being brought up in any form in this discussion if there is a real discussion to be had. Unless we begin talking about the preferences of the average PoE player and look at the only objective measure of "fun": total player count by comparison to other games. More players objectively means a more fun game. No individual opinion comes into play. In nearly every scenario. If we want to twist this conversation to "what do the players overall want with PoE 2?", then we can start talking about objective fun metrics.

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ShaDarkLord#6528 schrieb:

He’s blaming gamers for “forcing” a small indie company like GGG into making PoE 1.5 because the evil community supposedly demanded it. There’s no beef here — he’s just a typical fanboy trying to shift blame.

And the key point here: nobody ever asked GGG to port this stuff over. They chose to do it themselves. So either embrace the zoom-zoom identity, or actually commit to meaningful combat — but stop blaming players for design choices GGG made on their own.

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ShaDarkLord#6528 schrieb:

“Both?” Yeah, sure — the players totally held GGG at gunpoint and forced them to code PoE 1.5. Come on. Nobody was out there chanting “please recycle PoE1 mechanics.” That’s pure fanfiction.

Nobody was begging for PoE 1.5. Show me a single streamer or community push back in 0.1 saying “please just copy PoE 1.” You won’t find it. That’s GGG’s choice, not some community conspiracy.

Stop pretending the community demanded this mess.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 schrieb:

You cant reason with them. It was obvious day 1 when every event GGG included was a swarm event completely contradicting the slow methodical meaningful combat. This individual is locked in on what they said and not what they actually did and because they dont like it, they are blaming the players.

Even AI knows...
The level of gaslighting you're trying to make here is insane...

I would love to use some stronger words to describe you, beyond blatant liars. But I would get censored for doing so. You disgust me with how brazen you can be with those lies.

At the very least you could own it.

You could've said something like "Well, if their vision was all that strong they wouldn't have given up so easily on it because of pressure" or something like that. Instead you decide to lie with impunity.

Don't get me started on how much hate Jonathan was getting specifically directed towards him as an individual.

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cowmoo275#3095 schrieb:

But also....you continue to try and conflate "engaging" with "fun", which is a MASSIVE mistake. First you need to define engaging: then you need to define "fun". And then, after doing that, you need to recognize that both of those things are ONLY your opinion and not objective fact in the least.

For example: I actually find the non-engaging combat MORE fun.

Good for you, I've never questioned what you find fun, I didn't even use the word fun in the text you quoted.

I have continuously used the words "good and engaging combat" which were the exact same words used by Jonathan as well, by the way. Both of those are objective and, again, the main focus of the thread.

I don't think you could ever tell me that you've ever had the thought "Man.. I can't wait to play PoE1 for that really good combat it has." You've already told me the reasons you've played it for.

I MYSELF didn't play PoE1 for it's combat... clearly.

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IonSugeRau1#1069 schrieb:

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ShaDarkLord#6528 schrieb:

He’s blaming gamers for “forcing” a small indie company like GGG into making PoE 1.5 because the evil community supposedly demanded it. There’s no beef here — he’s just a typical fanboy trying to shift blame.

And the key point here: nobody ever asked GGG to port this stuff over. They chose to do it themselves. So either embrace the zoom-zoom identity, or actually commit to meaningful combat — but stop blaming players for design choices GGG made on their own.

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ShaDarkLord#6528 schrieb:

“Both?” Yeah, sure — the players totally held GGG at gunpoint and forced them to code PoE 1.5. Come on. Nobody was out there chanting “please recycle PoE1 mechanics.” That’s pure fanfiction.

Nobody was begging for PoE 1.5. Show me a single streamer or community push back in 0.1 saying “please just copy PoE 1.” You won’t find it. That’s GGG’s choice, not some community conspiracy.

Stop pretending the community demanded this mess.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 schrieb:

You cant reason with them. It was obvious day 1 when every event GGG included was a swarm event completely contradicting the slow methodical meaningful combat. This individual is locked in on what they said and not what they actually did and because they dont like it, they are blaming the players.

Even AI knows...
The level of gaslighting you're trying to make here is insane...

I would love to use some stronger words to describe you, beyond blatant liars. But I would get censored for doing so. You disgust me with how brazen you can be with those lies.

At the very least you could own it.

You could've said something like "Well, if their vision was all that strong they wouldn't have given up so easily on it because of pressure" or something like that. Instead you decide to lie with impunity.

Don't get me started on how much hate Jonathan was getting specifically directed towards him as an individual.

if you use your chatgpt skills you could find exact post

https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/dxlbqv/quin69_chris_wilson_interview_exilecon_2019/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

This post is from 6 years ago about the original PoE 2 demo. All Quin69 did back then was voice some skepticism about slower gameplay. He never said “slow gameplay = boring,” and he definitely never said GGG should just copy-paste PoE 1.

Im done to argue with you, you just stubborn kid who arguing for sake of arguing. many posts written and you are keeping shifting blame to gamers. Good luck

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ShaDarkLord#6528 schrieb:

if you use your chatgpt skills you could find exact post

https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/dxlbqv/quin69_chris_wilson_interview_exilecon_2019/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

This post is from 6 years ago about the original PoE 2 demo. All Quin69 did back then was voice some skepticism about slower gameplay. He never said “slow gameplay = boring,” and he definitely never said GGG should just copy-paste PoE 1.

Im done to argue with you, you just stubborn kid who arguing for sake of arguing. many posts written and you are keeping shifting blame to gamers. Good luck

Comments from 10 months + ago before release. What do you think they're responding to? Imaginary pushback? Stop with the lying already.

There was pushback everywhere, even in PoE1 itself on ingame channels.

Zizaran was even trying to push this narrative with disabled people to somehow guilt-trip Jonathan into 1 button builds at the time.

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Comments from 10 months + ago before release. What do you think they're responding to? Imaginary pushback? Stop with the lying already.

There was pushback everywhere, even in PoE1 itself on ingame channels.

Zizaran was even trying to push this narrative with disabled people to somehow guilt-trip Jonathan into 1 button builds at the time.

Are you Kaltorak?

Jesus guys........NO ONE is saying that Jonathan and GGG hasn't stated that they WANT PoE 2 to have methodical and engaging combat. Stop trying to put those words into my and other's mouths. That only proves you are STILL failing to comprehend any of the points being made.

It is NOT about the intentions behind PoE 2, or what it should or shouldn't be: its about what it CAN be, and already IS. Opinions on what the game SHOULD ultimately become are irrelevant: at least for my part of this conversation.


You can wish beyond all hope that your current car could fly through the sky. Toyota could even come out and say they had intended for all priuses to be flying cars..............but none of that means they can suddenly make existing priuses fly. Because the car is built the way it is built. There are hard limitations in place BECAUSE of the way GGG ultimately built the game.

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IonSugeRau1#1069 schrieb:

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AverBeg7#1689 schrieb:

Where the pacing is concerned when talking about "the pacing" is relevant, it's pretty good as is. Maybe buff some boss' HP pools after the nerfs in 0.2 and player buffs in 0.3.

Look, I've said it before to that other guy. That's your opinion, and it's not what this thread is about.

Objectively, combat is not good nor engaging right now and that's what GGG advertised PoE2 as having.

I really really Really don't care how you believe it's fine when it's clearly not or how some other guy says it's impossible because of some other stupid made up reason.

Stating the fact that ARPGs as they progress get more monsters on screen and the player gets more powerful, meaning as the game progresses at a point there is too much going on to balance with intentional pacing, is not "a made up reason". It is real, it is the first hurdle in the way of the game you want, and it is centered around the entire basis of this discussion.

You keep talking about a game you imagine, and your solution is just "10x less monsters, 10x harder". It's the same problem from a different baseline, it does not net you a slow methodical game from top down in an ARPG with depth and a high ceiling for monster/ player scaling.

It also is wholly unspecific. You need to give specific examples of where the progression broke for you, on what skill/ class, and what you would like to see realistically changed or it is useless.

You are just saying "try again, do it better". Nonsense. The campaign and early maps is fantastically paced, combat pacing being compromised later on is simply an inherent issue that happens naturally as you push the boundaries of builds and content in a game with so much to offer.

Your solution of offering less, with the same problems, is not better.