Put "Mirrored" status on the base item you mirror

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Snorkle_uk#0761 schrieb:

thing is its often costing them 10, 20, 40+ mirrors worth of orbs to craft one of those items.

This is true, crafting those mirror worthy items are extremely expensive and people who sell mirror service have to do it for a long time just to recover the cost of making the item, if they even can.

I fear that if you could only mirror a item once, people would just stop crafting those items and the price of crafting materials that normal players sell would plummet, destroying the market.

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Tumulten#3988 schrieb:

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Snorkle_uk#0761 schrieb:

thing is its often costing them 10, 20, 40+ mirrors worth of orbs to craft one of those items.

This is true, crafting those mirror worthy items are extremely expensive and people who sell mirror service have to do it for a long time just to recover the cost of making the item, if they even can.

I fear that if you could only mirror a item once, people would just stop crafting those items and the price of crafting materials that normal players sell would plummet, destroying the market.

I like the idea of an item only being able to be mirrored once.

That said, as several people in here are mentioning, the change would have severe snowball effects. People would have no way of making back the investment it takes to make a mirror items. Who the hell would spend several mirrors to crate a mirror item just "for themselves"?

That said, everyone knows that the mirror crafting business is dirty from the inside out. We're talking guilds, discord communities, RMT and whatnot because it is as profitable as it is - and because there's so much currency involved. Removing that part of the game wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing in the long run.

But in the current environment? No. The game needs a lot of changed before a change like this could be made. But again, I like the idea of a game where an item can't be copied indefinitely.

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Snorkle_uk#0761 schrieb:

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Absconditus#0168 schrieb:

It should be enough that you can make a dupe of an item once. It allows you to sell a dupe of a god tier item for a huge profit, once, not endlessly. It's effectively duping if there's no limit put on it. You can argue that the rarity of mirrors are a limit, but there is a RMT problem in the game. Let's not have more systems that makes that worse.

thing is its often costing them 10, 20, 40+ mirrors worth of orbs to craft one of those items.

selling 1 copy for huge profit? how much are you imagining theyre going to charge for it?

if the sale price stops being you provide a mirror + 300 divines as a fee and it starts to be the fee is 20 mirrors does that make the rmt better or worse?

if people need to craft 100 of these items now instead of 1, does that actually make the rmt situation better?

maybe, im not saying it doesnt. maybe people just wont be able to craft god tier items any more because no one can afford to, the return just isnt there and everyone just crafts much lesser items and makes 1 copy with smaller returns. but it could just make the rmt situation even worse too. im not really sure.

this system is in poe1 and worked for 12 years, it created a functioning ecosystem of competing crafters using up masses of resources which created demand for farmers and gave high end players something to strive for along with making the game have a super jackpot item drop of the mirror.

i could envisage a better world where we all get to craft more and make 100s of great items rather than 1 great item mirrored 100 times. maybe.

but would it turn out that way? this method works, its proven to work and creates a good functioning dynamic system that brings a lot of meaning to the game for a lot of people in terms of keeping the economy and gameplay loop working.

poe1 items mattered, drops matter. a lot of the reason a game like d3 is trash is because nothing matters much. its a loot hunt game genre, having an item like a mirror that is a jackpot lottery win matters, knowing that the next barrel you smash could potentially have that megamillions jackpot in it gives the item hunt game something it really needs. many chase uniques have come and gone in poe1, theyve been a jackpot and then become a bit meh, but the mirror alone has held up for 12 years. even in standard a 12 year old economy if you find a mirror its insane value, its worth more now than it was 12 years ago.

the hard trick in this sort of game is finding a way to make pixels feel valuable, worth spending time farming, to have an emotional reaction when they appear on screen. ggg have managed that with their item system and the most powerful success story of that system is the mirror, that its kept the feels for 12 years is crazy.

i think they would be insane to mess with that. its a proven winner, we can theory that this or that might be better, but we dont know if it would really work out in practice. the mirror at this point is probably the most iconic item drop this game genre has ever known. it would be an act of absolute madness to fuck with that imo.

What you are effectively advocating for, is that you only need to make that one golden ticket. That one god tier item. Then you can milk that golden cow endlessly as it will always be a source for dupes of that item. How is that making it so crafters spend more time crafting than if they had to make multiple god tier items? If you already crafted a god tier item, you're good. That's it, you've struck gold and can keep duping it with mirrors. Also, there's going to be people who get god tier items with pure luck as well. Without a limitation, they can just keep duping out copies of the item. It makes the special god tier item less special, with multiple copies of it floating around.

A mirror doesn't lose its value because both items gets flagged as having been involved in its use. It is still an insanely valuable item because you can make a copy of a god tier item. I would even say the mirror itself would have an increased value, together with the god tier item, because that god tier item can only be duplicated once. It becomes a very special item.

To say items mattered in PoE is bordering on ridiculous. The only thing that matters in PoE unless you just started playing, and are putting on what you find, are Normal base items to craft on and Uniques that are used to define a build. That is a huge problem with PoE. Gear drops largely doesn't matter in that game. It's what PoE2 sets out to attempt fix, making on-the-ground-loot feel much more valuable and exciting. They haven't quite found a balance there yet, but I hope they will. Crafting in PoE and PoE2 should not be compared 1:1 either, and I hope it will never become a 1:1 system between the two. I want partial improvements introduced to enhance our ability for more deterministic outcomes, but I am happy if I don't have to see 9 different systems involved in crafting an item again.

TL;DR: The limitation of making both the source and the duplication flag as mirrored does not devalue the mirror. It makes both items even more special.

I like the idea of having passive income by doing mirror service. I don't have anything that good yet, but I'm getting close (omen of whittling needed) :)

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locoblaster#7905 schrieb:

A copy is enought.
If we go a little to the extreme, with infinite duplicates, we all end up playing the same items, this will make the game a complete joke.
To be honest, it is unbelievable how they let this go.

Wdym? I think many ppl here underestimate how hard it is to even craft a "mirror worthy" item. Probably 0.01% of the player base can think of getting a mirror to buy a mirror service (finished items) and even less ppl are able to craft the item in the first place.

Hell, if you are not lucky - crafting a "mirror-tier" item takes more currency than a mirror. Ppl still do it because they like the challenge and/or can make currency back with the mirror service or even huge profits, depending on the item.

Changing the mirror to "both items are unchangeable now" benefits not a single player in the game.

Imagine pricing mirror items then.

For example, a "4 synth super duper bow" needs the mirror to mirror it in the first place AND obviously you need to pay the person for the mirror service.

The "fee" you pay for the service now is relatively low because you can offer the service to multiple ppl and make overall profit (or at least break even).
With the "1 time mirrorable" change you pay what? The mirror PLUS 500div? 1000div?

Ppl would stop making these items to that amount in the first place because fewer ppl could afford it and the profit would be lower.

Lose - Lose for basically everyone.

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Soviel#4965 schrieb:

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AintCare#6513 schrieb:

if the did that they would receive death threats again from the RMT 'community', not worth it

RMT 'community' can at best leave a big shitstain on their gaming chairs out of anger and if not, and they are able to pull off those threats into reality, GGG is supporting organised crime group.

clearly i wasn't taking about their customers, jesus m8

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Absconditus#0168 schrieb:

What you are effectively advocating for, is that you only need to make that one golden ticket.

im saying we have 12 year proof the current system works. im pointing to the fact its been successful for 12 years.

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Absconditus#0168 schrieb:

What you are effectively advocating for, is that you only need to make that one golden ticket. That one god tier item. Then you can milk that golden cow endlessly as it will always be a source for dupes of that item. How is that making it so crafters spend more time crafting than if they had to make multiple god tier items?

nothing in what i said was making a point about how long crafters would spend crafting or implying that time spent was in any way a factor in how good or bad the function of mirrors would be.

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Absconditus#0168 schrieb:

A mirror doesn't lose its value because both items gets flagged as having been involved in its use. It is still an insanely valuable item because you can make a copy of a god tier item. I would even say the mirror itself would have an increased value, together with the god tier item, because that god tier item can only be duplicated once. It becomes a very special item.

are you sure? can you guarantee that?


be honest with yourself, if i said to you that we could make the change on your assurance that the mirror wouldnt lose value but its value would actually increase, but if you were wrong about the value then you lose your house? what u gonna say?

cause its easy to sit there on the forums and make this claim. if you are a dev and you have a game, and if you fuck up the game thats it, the game is fucked your company is fucked everyone loses their jobs and your lifes work goes down the toilet then it stops being so easy to just say "oh yeah its fine it will work THIS way, truth me bro". they actually have to stop and look at the chaotic nature of changing an extremely complex system.

right now they KNOW the current system works, very well. you say the new system is gonna work better. ok, wheres your proof? im not even saying you are wrong, but what are you basing that on? cause theres 12 years of the mirror being one of the biggest success story items in the arpg world in terms of having a massive sense of value and holding it in a permanent economy for over a decade without flinching.

where is the proof this doesnt tank mirrors perceived value? where is the proof this lowers the use of rmt? where is the proof this lowers the hold of the crafting cartels? i dont see any reasoning in this thread that convinces me of any of those things. i could make arguments for all of them, i could also make arguments why it would make all of those things even worse.


thats the point im making. we dont know the effects, theres no sound logic being used here that it would result in any positive outcomes. the only cast iron thing we have to bank on is 12 years of proof the current function works.



i can think of 10 better systems for how mirrors could work or even them not existing, but would they really work in practice? would i actually bet something really important on them working and not messing the game up?

no.

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Absconditus#0168 schrieb:

To say items mattered in PoE is bordering on ridiculous. The only thing that matters in PoE unless you just started playing, and are putting on what you find, are Normal base items to craft on and Uniques that are used to define a build. That is a huge problem with PoE. Gear drops largely doesn't matter in that game.

were talking about crafted items and currency items in the thread. where did i mention the average rare item drops you get in a typical map?

i said items matter. i can link a primal ancient legendary in D3, it means fk all to anyone. i can link a shako from D4, completely meaningless pixels. if i link a mirror that means something, if i link a perfect mirrored item it means something, if i link a bow that cos 25 mirrors to craft that thing means something.

items in poe have meaning, people actually care about items in this game. stuff has a sense of value, sometimes a very high sense of value to a lot of the dedicated player base. that isnt true is all arpgs, that isnt true in most arpgs, that isnt as true in any other arpg as it is in poe. in D2 some items had a lot of meaning, id argue not as much as this game tho.

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AintCare#6513 schrieb:

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Soviel#4965 schrieb:

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AintCare#6513 schrieb:

if the did that they would receive death threats again from the RMT 'community', not worth it

RMT 'community' can at best leave a big shitstain on their gaming chairs out of anger and if not, and they are able to pull off those threats into reality, GGG is supporting organised crime group.

clearly i wasn't taking about their customers, jesus m8

Me neither, I know who you meant bro :)

This thread only exists because of the mass duping and exploits that have happened. Fixing these plus an economy reset and this discussion ends.

I think people do not realize the exponential value of infinite mirror. Let's take for an example an empire like TFT (600.000+ members) having huge amount of players being able to mass produce resources, what is going to happen? First mirror item made in a week, or even less. Then people will buy it and the mentioned group will profit. Because RMT is so prevalent the item is going to be sold very quickly, thus giving liquidity to make another mirror item. Then another, then another. Always more quicker, always faster, because of the exponential wealth coming back in their pocket. Hell I would not be surprised if they can make all the mirror items in less then 3 months, covering the full market. Then they have the economy on their shoulder and they can dictate how the flow of the market is going to go. Ultimately I do agree with OP, mirror item mirrored once is the most beneficial thing that can happen. Endless growth is a double edge sword, wheres an individual could struck goldmine but a series of group or massive empire could run the ecosystem of the entire game, ruining it for everybody else. And if you think they don't take any side deals from RMT sites you would be a fool to think so.