XP penalty and likely 1 portal is NOT going anywhere

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cowmoo275#3095 schrieb:

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The core of the discussion is how much failure is fun versus how much is frustrating. It's not about avoiding failure—it's about how failure is framed in the context of a game’s design. The issue isn't just the fear of failure, it's the repercussions of it. In PoE, a game with a deep progression system, a single failure on a high-tier map can feel crushing, especially when so much is riding on that one shot. The challenge should come from navigating complex mechanics, adapting strategies, and mastering the content—not from having to constantly worry about every minor mistake costing you everything.

Some players might thrive in that environment, but for others, it can be more frustrating than fun, especially if they feel their only choice is to grind lower-tier content because the stakes feel too high in endgame. The balance between failure and reward is a delicate one. Too much punishment for failure can make a game feel unfair, even if it's technically 'challenging.'

It’s not about coddling players, but ensuring that the challenge doesn’t feel like an endless grind of avoiding failure for fear of the punishment. Some of the most fun moments come from overcoming obstacles after a failure, not from a constant state of failure with little room for recovery.
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But here’s where the inconsistency lies, though: you say it's a personal issue if someone views the game as an endless string of failures, but at the same time, you're insisting that one map (or one portal) is a perfectly fine challenge to overcome. Isn’t that kind of a contradiction? If the game is about overcoming obstacles, then the consequences of failing those obstacles—whether it’s one map or one portal—should be fair and encouraging, not a massive roadblock that makes players feel like they’ve wasted their time. You seem to think the punishment for failure should be part of the challenge, yet you're disregarding the idea that some players might find the intensity of that punishment discouraging rather than motivating.

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Z3RoNightMare#7140 schrieb:

Some of the most fun moments come from overcoming obstacles after a failure, not from a constant state of failure with little room for recovery.

You keep saying this....and I'll keep repeating: THE GAME IS NOT ONE SINGLE WAYSTONE. It is not a "constant state of failure" in the least....you always have more waystones.

You want more portals? Think of waystones as "more portals". They serve the same function: more tries to get loot to improve your character.

If you die at t6, try another waystone at t6 and die, try another waystone at t6 and die...etc, etc. that's just plain stupid. If you are getting stressed about that...my friend, that is YOUR fault.

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 schrieb:

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stecheese1#0850 schrieb:

Why would they? the only death mechanics are respawning right before where you died and collecting your droped currency. Actually the stakes of Marika checkpoints outside of every boss room, is an addition they made. It obviously drastically reduces one of the major consequences of dying. Not sure you're really thinking your arguments through.

And you start to learn to make the most of your current soul count before entering any new or dangerous zones, saving consumables until you need to eek out a few more points to get that level point, making death far more tolerable.

There it is again. 6b)"Elden Ring doesn't take away all of your XP if you just play well.", I even highlighted the contradiction so you won't miss it.

PoE 2 doesn't take your xp away if you just play well. It is a guarantee that every single Elden Ring or Souls player at some point lost 100% of their XP because they failed to retrieve their corpse after 1 death. So what happened there? Did the players go to Fromsoft forums to whine about it and Fromsoft nerfed it? No, you Got Gud instead and learned to not try bosses before you leveled up first.

See what I mean about XP loss whiners never actually having any good points whatsoever and always arguing in circles? You cannot debate in good faith with people who refuse to debate in the first place.

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cowmoo275#3095 schrieb:

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If every time something goes wrong, you just say 'It’s your fault,' you’re ignoring the broader issue of game design. Some players might not mind the high stakes, but for others, it’s a frustrating experience that could easily be addressed by tweaking how failure impacts the player’s progression.

It's not about 'blaming' players for not being perfect; it’s about creating an environment where failure is a learning opportunity, not just a setback that makes people feel like they're being punished for every minor mistake. So, when you say 'It’s your fault,' it’s almost like you're shifting the blame onto the player, without recognizing that the design itself can sometimes create a cycle of frustration rather than growth.

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PaintMaster#2396 schrieb:

Imagine GGG remove xp penalty, and give us 6 portals, what would it mean?

1. Literally 0 reason investing into defense at all or above bare minimum.
2. It doesn't matter if you die or not, you still have more portals anyway.
3. This encourage more and more people play exactly same fastest range builds.
4. This encourage people play builds that clear screens with half of gear being rarity and 0 defenses.
5. It just deletes build diversity, when most of players play same build.

Not denying that some stuff there in maps do hit hard. And it hit harder if you don't care about mods on your waystones that can make easy map into deadly map.

If you die in maps on your 1500 life build, its not game problem, its your problem.
If you die in maps because you didn't bother investing into defenses, its not game problem, its your problem.

Game will change a lot and not once during Early Access. Work around to make your character good, instead of complaining about "game problem" that is your build problem in reality.

Some tips that might help you:

- On builds that naturally don't have high life, you should definitely go into hybrid life/es, or life/es/evasion, its good, its worth it.

- You might know that armor is bad, work around it, get a bit of armor against smaller hits, just stack more life against bigger hits instead of going hard into armor, since currently there's just nothing in the game that hit for more than 4k phys damage, so for example 4k life character with 5k armor will tank higher hit than 3k life character with 15k armor.

- Most of stuff that kill you in maps is elemental but not phys. So max resists and higher life/es is the way to make melee character tanky. Very few mobs that you find in maps can hit hard with phys damage, but almost all if not all of those mobs are very slow and easy to avoid.

Edit: changed some points because some people take every single word literally.

- 1 Portal, 10% XP Loss
My Build is a glass cannon with the intent of killing things before I see them.

- 6 Portals, no XP Loss
My Build is a glass cannon with the intent of killing things before I see them.

There would be literally zero difference in how people play. It would just make the game more fun and less annoying.

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TorhanSacras#2751 schrieb:

- 1 Portal, 10% XP Loss
My Build is a glass cannon with the intent of killing things before I see them.

- 6 Portals, no XP Loss
My Build is a glass cannon with the intent of killing things before I see them.

There would be literally zero difference in how people play. It would just make the game more fun and less annoying.

Refusing to learn the game is not playing the game, its skipping it. People who desire the ability to not look at the screen while playing the game don't know what they want from a game. They want instant gratification and once they get it, they whine that the game is too boring.

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cowmoo275#3095 schrieb:

Yes, 1 portal is one of them. 1 map is meaningless in the grand scheme of the game, and well-balanced players absolutely know that.

So why do you care if players get 2,3 or 6 attempts at a map if it's ultimately meaningless?

You can still quit your own map after one death because you haven't git-gudded enough.

If the rest of us are so bad we will just die 2,3 or 6 times anyways and you'll still be a god gamer never ever dying ever cuz ur a god gamer.

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Z3RoNightMare#7140 schrieb:

If every time something goes wrong, you just say 'It’s your fault,' you’re ignoring the broader issue of game design. Some players might not mind the high stakes, but for others, it’s a frustrating experience that could easily be addressed by tweaking how failure impacts the player’s progression.

It's not about 'blaming' players for not being perfect; it’s about creating an environment where failure is a learning opportunity, not just a setback that makes people feel like they're being punished for every minor mistake. So, when you say 'It’s your fault,' it’s almost like you're shifting the blame onto the player, without recognizing that the design itself can sometimes create a cycle of frustration rather than growth.

4th time: 1 waystone isn't the game. You play hundreds or thousands of them. You will not be perfect on all of them. You aren't meant to be. The 1-portal punishment neither confirms nor denies this. This is WHY people choose to NOT play Hardcore.

Again this post you just wrote assumes players are total idiots. There is no "blame" here, unless you stupidly and repeatedly attempt content thats too hard and die over and over again...without changing anything.

Death is inevitable in this game, unless you are "perfect" hardcore players. I'll say it a 5th time: 1 waystone isn't the game.


Your whole argument is based on this notion that a player is dying over and over and over again. With literally no progress in between deaths. If that is your personal level of play....I am officially blaming you for your deaths and frustration. Because it certainly has nothing to do with the game, nor the 1-portal punishment.

Personally, I like to think about why I died rather than rush in blind again for the 10th/20th/100th time. 6 portals, or ANY portals, reinforces the "no think, repeat" style of gameplay.

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cowmoo275#3095 schrieb:

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This idea that you're 'blaming' players for their deaths because they don't adapt fast enough or 'rush in blind' is a bit of a strawman. Not every player dies repeatedly because they refuse to learn from their mistakes. Sometimes the system itself is the issue, not the player's inability to change. There’s a difference between pushing yourself too hard without reflection and being in a game system where every death is so costly that it discourages experimentation or risk-taking.

You keep framing it as if it's just about adapting, but what you're ignoring is how the structure of the game can turn failures into discouragement rather than learning. Your stance that 'it’s all on the player' misses the role of game design in shaping that experience. If the game were structured differently, it could allow players to make mistakes, learn from them, and still feel like they’re moving forward, without feeling like they're stuck in an endless cycle of punishment.

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Z3RoNightMare#7140 schrieb:

If the game were structured differently, it could allow players to make mistakes, learn from them, and still feel like they’re moving forward, without feeling like they're stuck in an endless cycle of punishment.

You're not stuck in an "endless cycle of punishment" if you would just stop dying repeatedly. If you're dying once per hour then the game bugs are just a silly excuse. Your playstyle or your build is the problem, not the game.