XP penalty and likely 1 portal is NOT going anywhere

No exp penalty would make glass cannon builds too strong.

Tho I don't like the 10% loss I would like it to be like 5% only one bar not two

the XP loss has to stay as if it was not here all players would be level 100 and have Nothing to work towards

I am level 91 I would be 100 if I had not died all the time to me silly and not paying attention to what is going on

"

artxev#6334 schrieb:

I don't like glass cannon builds, but they are a way to play the game.

And you're setting yourself up for failure if you choose to go Glass cannon. That is because the game is essentially a Bullet Hell Shmup game with random patterns. That means it doesn't matter how mechanically good you are, you ARE GOING TO GET HIT. If you constantly die because you didn't invest in defences, that is your fault, not the games fault.

"

Are you serious? Who are you to tell me which games I can play and which I can't?

I'm not telling you which games to play, your busy schedule is. If you don't have time to invest in more time-demanding games, then you don't have it.

"

Do I need to remind you how many one shot mechanics there are in POE2?
I give you another example: you've passed all four floors of Trial of Sekhemas, maybe you are already a bit tired, it doesn't matter, you are in front of Zarokh and his barely infinite health pool, you're almost about to beat him, but one moment of distraction and that stupid clock minigame one shots you (I usually die in Maven memory game too, I know).

Are you telling me that the game is punishing you for your lapse of attention? Oh no the horror! What we really need is a game that never punishes you at all so you can read book while mashing one button and not looking at the screen.

You learned how to get your Runes back in Elden Ring with Torrent, so you don't lose runes in Elden Ring if you play good. If you play good in PoE 2 you don't die at all. Hardcore wouldn't exist at all if the game would be full of unfair oneshots. Just like in Elden Ring you just need to git gud.

"

CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 schrieb:

I'll reiterate something I said earlier relating to Difficulty vs Challenge under a spoiler tag for brevity's sake.

Spoiler

Yes, difficulty can be an important part of challenge. Knowing how to approach greater difficulty can definitely be a challenge. However, that only works if executed right. No amount of strategy, preparation, or game knowledge will prevent a one shot from some mob you didn't even have a chance to register was there,

That is not an XP penalty issue, that is a balance issue which you can post in feedback or bug report if it was really invisible.

"

The usual circle of "Penalty for dying bad" argument goes like this:

On top of time and exp loss, we lose: 1) Waystone, 2) Mechanics, 3) Loot drops. That is significantly more punitive than just xp loss.

Yet you're primarily complaining about the XP loss which hasn't been an issue since Diablo 2 first came out. 6 Portals in PoE 1 caused a YOLO playstyle of a lot of players who simply refused to learn the game and just kamikazed through ultra-juiced maps because they got huge returns for it anyway. So they end up dying 2000+ times every single League without any clue what a single PoE 1 mob or boss actually does.

"

Same thing is happening in PoE2 where no amount of skill is going to overcome those rare moments of bullshit that expected you to have some top 0.1% of gear when you otherwise are clearing that same tier at the same amount of juicing consistently without much trouble.

Which should be the indicator that you've been taking too high a risk all along. Hardcore players in PoE 1 generally farm maps that are at least 15 levels lower than their current level if they want to stay on the safe side of things.

"

Exp penalty haters will continue to be proven wrong about its impact on player retention. These one-attempt maps, though, may suggest a different reality with the sheer volume of negative feedback on it.

People have been whining about XP penalty and how POE is definitely going to die for at least 10 years, yet the Steam charts alone prove otherwise. Casualizing games do not make people stay longer in the game, Diablo 4 is proof of that. In Diablo 4 you can press a button and you deal 15 trillion or even Infinite damage on the screen and you will never die because monsters melt 3 screens away. Yet people got bored of that game very quickly.

"

Respecting players' time is important. The fact that you're so trollishly suggesting playing another game is actually a major point in favor of less punitive death penalties because people WILL go to another game that DOES respect their time.

Name one Arpg currently bigger than Path of Exile 1 or 2.

"

Precisely why "everyone would just run maps without defenses/good build/enough EHP" is a nonsensical argument and total red herring. You're freely admitting people want to hit high levels for the extra passives and base life/mana. Why add so many more punishments on top of an already difficult task?

Because its meant to be difficult. Back when Atlas was first introduced the top players reached level 100 in less than a week. GGG nerfed the XP gain between levels 95-100 twice after that. It is a clear conscious decision that getting to 100 is supposed to be difficult.

"

... that you can then recover if you're careful,

You don't die in PoE 2 if you're careful. I haven't died in PoE 2 endgame since last year. And I'm playing an SSF Warrior.

"

Most people are dying fairly unpreventable deaths.

Which again are a bug report or balance argument issue, not XP penalty issue.

"

I can run 50 white T15 and clean them out without issue, then the 51st suddenly has a rare with 3 bonus damage mods and one shots me before I even register it was a rare.

That is a sign that either you don't pay attention to the screen, or your build lacks defences. That, or you're in too high level maps for your build.

"

And games that are overly punishing are not fun, no matter how good the challenge is. This is especially true if there are negative feedback loops. The negative feedback loop of one-attempt mapping is that you could run into a map drought. Not only are you losing the map, its mechanics, and any loot that was on the ground, you might then not be able to maintain map sustain, and suddenly someone consistently running t14/15 is down to 11's and 12's because the game won't stop dropping tier 2's and 5's.

High tier maps are intentionally supposed to be harder to sustain. Why do you think casual players should be able to easily clear the highest level content in the game? If you do constantly die on certain tier maps then its a clear message to you that your build is not ready.

Back in PoE 1 Alpha there was no map system, instead you had linked levels of higher and higher tiers connected through doorways. What ended up happening was that players immediatly rushed to the highest tier content possible, kept constantly dying there and then came back to these forums to cry how the game is too difficult.

Not one of them thought that maybe they should spend more time in lower tier areas first. Remove map sustain and death penalties and that is 100% how players are going to act again. You are acting like it right now.

"

No one is asking for the game to be made easier, just less punitive. Punishment does not equate to challenge.

Yes it does. If you had infinite HP in Elden Ring it doesn't matter if the boss had a million different movesets to learn you could still just mash the attack button to win automatically. Risk of failure is what defines challenge. If the failure does not exist, there is no challenge.

You failed to prove any of my points wrong, your argument boiled down to the last one just like I predicted "Well its just not FUN(tm)".

there was another thread that got buried where someone brought up the idea of xp debt - instead of losing xp when you die, you go into 'xp debt' of an undetermined amount (lets say 5% of total xp for the character to get from level x to level x+1).

While under the effects of XP debt, half of all xp earned goes towards servicing that debt so while you are still making progress, its been cut in half as a death penalty until you pay off the debt.

In this post, the person who put this idea forward mentioned that a cap would likely be necessary, so you could only go into xp debt = to 1.5 levels (which would require dying 30 times before paying off your xp debt).

I thought this was a marvelous idea; its definitely a punishment you want to avoid but it doesnt make you feel like you're going nowhere or even backwards...its more of a brake saying 'whoa, slow down their junior! you should probably upgrade your gear or rework your build before getting on this ride!'

introduce XP debt, give us 4 portals per map, and wipe out all map special events on first death. Plenty of incentive not to die and enough punishment to keep us from banging our heads on a wall.

1 death per map has made leveling up easier. Back in POE1 whenever i died on a map, I re-entered, died to same thing again, re-entered again, died. I would lose an entire level because I was too stubborn to quit. But here, I die, I only lose 2 bubbles.

"

CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 schrieb:

I'm responding to you in good faith.

And then...

"

CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 schrieb:

"ad hominem attacks"

"bullshit"

"Exp penalty haters will continue to be proven wrong"

"Respecting players' time is important. The fact that you're so trollishly suggesting playing another game is actually a major point in favor of less punitive death penalties because people WILL go to another game that DOES respect their time."

"nonsensical argument and total red herring."

"bud."

"Most people are dying fairly unpreventable deaths."

"Pretty much Game Design 101 and you're dismissing it out of hand. Remarkably dishonest argument."

"No one is asking for the game to be made easier"

That's your good faith and how to debate with someone ? Please.

Can you at least admit that when you die it's most of the time your own fault ?

That would be a great start ; and then we may be able to iron out the rare few deaths which are caused by overpowered enemies and unseen effects. But that's only and surely so few of them.

"

Buggsy2#1098 schrieb:

1 death per map has made leveling up easier. Back in POE1 whenever i died on a map, I re-entered, died to same thing again, re-entered again, died. I would lose an entire level because I was too stubborn to quit. But here, I die, I only lose 2 bubbles.

I did the same and wanted to keep playing that system more than what we currently have.
I sometimes push too hard in poe2 and die saying "yep, I deserved that".
But more often it's just some random bs that the only reason I die to is because I don't RMT.
It gets harder to decide to keep playing everytime. I'm still enjoying learning various aspects of the game since the first league I really played in poe1 was settlers of kalguur.
Exp loss is fine I couldn't care less. But everything else that comes with death in this new system really doesn't inspire learning. Just overgearing so no matter how royally you mess up odds are you still don't die.

"

MEITTI#3999 schrieb:

You learned how to get your Runes back in Elden Ring with Torrent, so you don't lose runes in Elden Ring if you play good. If you play good in PoE 2 you don't die at all. Hardcore wouldn't exist at all if the game would be full of unfair oneshots. Just like in Elden Ring you just need to git gud.

Thank you very much, you've just enlighted my day. Now that I know I must "git gud", I'll surely improve myself, perhaps buy some hundreds of divines and get awesome gear, so I will become invincible and put myself in the Olympus of all POE elitists.

I'm joking, of course. The fact is that I don't stand people saying "git good" to other people.
Let players play and have fun.
I'm at level 91 and I'm having fun, otherwise I woudn't play, but one portal and xp loss are two mechanics that put a strain on my desire to play. In POE1 I stopped playing more than once due to xp loss.

"

artxev#6334 schrieb:

Thank you very much, you've just enlighted my day. Now that I know I must "git gud", I'll surely improve myself, perhaps buy some hundreds of divines and get awesome gear, so I will become invincible and put myself in the Olympus of all POE elitists.

I'm joking, of course. The fact is that I don't stand people saying "git good" to other people.
Let players play and have fun.
I'm at level 91 and I'm having fun, otherwise I woudn't play, but one portal and xp loss are two mechanics that put a strain on my desire to play. In POE1 I stopped playing more than once due to xp loss.

Sure, 'git gud' is a pithy internet meme.

However, contrast to the opposing view often expressed in this thread by people who decry literally any penalties or costs for failure. I.e. "it is LITERALLY NEVER MY FAULT when I die, it is ALWAYS the game hitting me with a total bullshit unavoidable unbeatable instant oneshot death from offscreen from a monster I haven't even seen yet, therefore it is unfair to punish me for events completely and totally beyond my control!"

Ahem: fuck that noise forever. Yeah, sometimes the stars align and all decide to look at you disapprovingly and the game ganks you in a way you really couldn't do much about. I'm staring at you, Rat Tornado rituals in tiny-ass maps.

HOWEVER. Those instances are vanishingly rare if you're geared remotely appropriately for the content you're doing, and are vastly, enormously, and uncontestably outweighed by "I played like a goober and got what was coming to me" deaths.

"Git gud" is the rallying cry of players trying to tell folks like Cap Brumblez that no, the game is not "cheating", the game is not "unbeatable", the game is not "instagibbing me out of nowhere." The game is just a game. It has no specific animus towards you-the-player. "Git gud" is aplea to acknowledge that when you die, it is your own damned bloody fault and the solution is not to rage against the uncaring heavens and demand that all forms of penalty, cost or failure be stripped from the game, but to try and improve your play. or your gear. Or whatever you can manage to improve.

Or? Accept that you've hit the limit of what you can accomplish with your current abilities and move on until you feel you've found a way to improve.

The penalty is needed, if getting rewards based on your choices is not for you then being human is a real struggle, if challenges are not "fun" then once again being a semi-developed human is hard.

If "fun" is brainless killing monsters and being way op to the enemies without penalties then we can safely state that someone has become a full-time veggie.