POE2 disrespecting our time (Post-0.4.0)

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Japonbu#0742 schrieb:

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KaiserBlade42#7840 schrieb:

in any play method, this game is unrewarding, because of the fucking group bounos. consediring that most of players are doing it solo 99% of time.


seriously. fucking crap game mechanics for loot.

You hit the nail on the head.
It feels unrewarding because Solo players are essentially playing a different game than the 6-man "Cartels."
The issue isn't just that groups get more loot. It is that Group Multipliers (Quantity/Rarity) scale exponentially, not linearly.
• Solo Player: Kill monster -> Get 1x Loot.
• 6-Man Optimized Group: Kill monster -> Get massive Multipliers + MF Culling -> Screen explodes with loot.
This creates Hyper-Inflation.
Because groups flood the market with high-tier items and raw currency, the purchasing power of the Solo player is destroyed.
We are the 99%, yet the economy is balanced around the top 1% of organized groups.
It makes Solo play feel like you are working minimum wage while watching groups print money in the background. If the game is mostly played Solo, the reward structure shouldn't treat Solo players like second-class citizens.

+1000 to this group play should not have better rewards than solo play they should be equal. If they want group players to get 100 div a map then solo players should get 100 div a map. Majority of people in POE play solo anyways because of the glaring issues of group play I will not even get into because GGG knows.

I read the first post and instantly can tell that the next 12 pages are mostly people complaining about loot and how they are mad that they see a video online of groups doing something they can't economically compete with individually and feel like there's no point in participating in the economy, but also feel that ssf is impossible, so there's no hope, and they don't want to play.

All of the content in this game is completely accessible without trading, and you don't need a PhD or to understand esoteric mechanisms to do it either, and if you do it in trade league and want to expedite things and circumvent certain mechanisms, you do not need to spend more than 5-10div, maximum.

The problem stems from the fact that most people don't really play poe, they play a derivative pvp economic meta-game where success is measured by div/hr, which I'm sorry to tell you - means your problems are not going to be solved by GGG.

You won't get your special drop rate league, and you won't ever be able to compete on the same level economically as an individual against a coordinated 6-man party who are all better than you.

Your only hope is to carve out your own fun based on your own goals and capabilities.

You can still do quite well individually in the economy just by playing it seems, because from the sounds of it, you are all too discouraged to play, so it shouldn't be too hard to out-earn most of you just by casually grinding lol.

I know a guy who never farms anything past t10 maps on his couch and does breach over and over and he has like 1000 divs in his stash and he plays some janky homebrewed invoker that manually casts ice nova and uses tempest flurry and would probably have his build laughed out of the room for being unoptimized.

If he can do it, so can you guys. You'd all be better off just focusing on having fun rather than trying to be "mathematically efficient" or whatever.

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karsey#2995 schrieb:

The problem stems from the fact that most people don't really play poe, they play a derivative pvp economic meta-game where success is measured by div/hr, which I'm sorry to tell you - means your problems are not going to be solved by GGG.

This, other that I am not sure if it's really most, but it's still a significant amount of players.

A lot of streamers and other content creators promote this idea that the main thing in PoE should be to maximize your div/hour and to chase those ultra-rare super end game items.

Unfortunately, a lot of people buy into this without understanding that there's a reason why that very end-game stuff is very hard and expensive to get; and then they also fail to see the forest for the trees when they chase the highest possible div/hour, and seem to forget that the actual point of video games is to just have fun while you play, and once you stop having fun, you don't need to continue chasing the numbers, you can play another game or go outside or go to the gym or study something or watch a movie or, ..

It's absolutely true that on trade, you can kit up a build on any weapon and ascendancy with 5-10 divs and successfully do all content the game currently has. And it is absolutely true that there's thousands of SSF players who clear the campaign and the first pinnacle bosses within a few days from league start. Clearly the real issue is not that it was impossible to kit yourself up.

People on this thread essentially demand that other players do the farming for them and then sell them the ultra-rare stuff for less than the cost it was to drop or craft them. It's ridiculous honestly. But I wouldn't as such put the blame on those players - the blame is on a culture around PoE that promotes this mindset that you are a failure of a PoE player if you don't chase high div/hour rates and if your build doesn't have that 100 div weapon.

Amen

The condescension is off the charts. It is assumed that complainers are so braindead they need to be told how to play and have fun. Hilarious.

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Japonbu#0742 schrieb:

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Skadrel#3812 schrieb:

Asking seriously here, are you presenting these numbers without making an overstatement? I know you're frustrated, but accuracy would help a lot here; I do not believe you're playing campaign efficiently with these numbers, and if I were to to believe you, I'd say your efficiency needs severe improvement, and GGG would not be reasonable restructuring the campaign around your experience, since you're at new player pace, in which case inefficiencies and mistakes are teaching moments which they mindedly aren't usually bothered by (by new player, I don't mean ARPG veterans, I mean new player. Like if I invited my girlfriend to play).

Or, bluntly, you're zooming so fast that noncombat content actually takes so much of your time, in which case you're such an efficient corner case of a player that it'd be insane for GGG to implement systems wide changes around your experience.

Like, I just don't trust the numbers. Do you seriously think 66% of your time in campaign is spent on walking, phasing animations, environment animations and unskippable dialogue?

I appreciate the skepticism, but let's break down the "2 Hours" sample. I wasn't claiming to finish the entire Campaign in 2 hours (that would be a world record). I was comparing a 2-hour gameplay session in the Campaign versus Maps.

And yes, I stand by those numbers for PoE 2 specifically.

Layout Size & Dead Ends: PoE 2 zones are significantly larger and more intricate than PoE 1. Running into a dead-end in Act 4 and having to backtrack through an already-cleared area takes literal minutes, not seconds. That is "Walking," not playing.

The "Fetch Quest" Loop: In the Campaign, the loop is often: Enter Zone -> Find Quest Item -> Portal to Town -> Talk to NPC -> Portal Back -> Walk to Next Zone Entrance. That entire sequence involves multiple load screens and walking segments with zero combat density.

So, we have our answer. Inefficient.

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Japonbu#0742 schrieb:

In Adventure Mode / Maps, the loop is: Enter Map -> Kill Everything -> Next Map. The "Action Density" is exponentially higher. That is the only metric that matters to me.

You might prefer a bullet hell game then, instead of a... ROLE PLAYING GAME.

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cerberus20#3609 schrieb:

Nothing i dread more than having to redo the campaign over and over every league, because I want to try a new build with another class. I'm ok with doing it once per league, but doesn't matter if it's PoE1 or PoE2, the having to redo the entire bloody campaign again and again is one of the things that make me not want to try more builds and quit early.

So I'm in full support of this idea of having a way to skip campaign and then just have endgame maps or something else to do for leveling.

You can't make doing the campaign over and over fun, it's not possible. There's not enough variation.

Maybe if they could make the entire game after first playthrough like Act 4 or the Interlude, where you more or less pick what you wanna do in whatever order you feel like. But everything before that, has to be skippable somehow.

You hit on the most critical point for GGG's metrics: Build Diversity vs. Burnout.
The Campaign currently acts as a massive "Fun Tax" on trying new builds.
I have 3 or 4 build ideas I would love to try right now. But every time I think about walking through the Act 2 desert or the Act 7 swamp again for the 50th time, I just log off.
The barrier to entry isn't difficulty; it's boredom.
Your point about Act 4 / Interlude is spot on.
That non-linear freedom ("Go where you want, kill what you want") gives us a taste of what leveling could be.
Adventure Mode is simply taking that Act 4 philosophy and applying it to the whole game from Level 1.
If GGG wants us to play (and spend money on) multiple characters per league, they need to remove the friction that stops us from pressing the "Create New Character" button.

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Lissitzky1#6329 schrieb:

Also a lot of streamers are buying crafting materials online you can find sites listing what they have to sell and that is a big advantage in the success in end game plus if you don't use the trade option give up in the end game I don't like contacting people or their bots

You just pointed at the Elephant in the Room: RMT (Real Money Trading).
It is an open secret that a significant portion of the high-end economy is fueled by credit cards, not just gameplay.
When you see someone with Mirror-tier gear on Week 1, you have to wonder: Did they get lucky, or did they swipe?
This is exactly why the Trade System feels so bad for legitimate players:
1. The Friction: Having to alt-tab to a website, whisper a stranger (who is likely a bot), wait for an invite, and go to their hideout is archaic design. It’s painful.
2. The Unfairness: You are competing economically against people who are buying gold/orbs with real money.
This is the strongest argument for Buffing SSF Drop Rates.
We want an escape route.
We want a mode where success is determined strictly by gameplay, not by how good your credit score is or how much patience you have for trading bots.
Give us a viable SSF, and we won't have to care about the RMT black market anymore.

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whitewidowlover#5624 schrieb:

An improved SSF mode with better drops, new means to obtain unique, with non transferable characters would be really beneficial for the game.

The gap between casual and hardcore player has been out of hand this league, by the time a normal player set foot in the end game, he's facing an inflation that would make look the Turkish Lyra like a reserve currency.

A "turbo" SSF mode would make everyone happy, reduce the rampant RMT problem, and surely appease the tensions appearing in the forum against a few individuals.

Some players just wanna play at their own pace, not with a gun pointed at their head with a countdown forcing them to rush before the economy gets out of hand.


As for campaign skip, this is an early access, player should be able to reroll new classes without spending 12 to 15h in a content that is trivialized anyway with twink items.
Campaign should be skippable until act 4 at least, thus giving you more data on newer content to adjust later on.

There's even the possibility to create bound to account items that would let you skip an act entirely, let's say you kill the arbiter on your first toon, you would drop an item to skip an act, same goes for other end game content.

As a Turkish player, I took emotional damage from that "Turkish Lira" comparison... but damn, you are absolutely right. That hit home. :D
1. The "Gun Pointed at Head" Feeling:
This is the perfect description of Trade League anxiety.
If you don't rush to maps in the first 48 hours, your purchasing power evaporates because of the inflation caused by groups/bots.
You aren't playing a game; you are racing against a collapsing economy.
A "Turbo SSF" (Voided) mode removes that gun. It lets us play at our own pace without the fear of "being left behind financially."
2. Act Skip Tokens:
Your idea about dropping "Bound to Account" skip items is brilliant.
• Kill the Act 10 Boss on Main -> Drop a "Campaign Skip Token" for your Alt.
• This proves you beat the content (Skill Check) while saving you the tedium on the second run (Time Check).
It’s such a simple solution: Reward mastery with convenience.

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steven0006#1294 schrieb:

+1000 to this group play should not have better rewards than solo play they should be equal. If they want group players to get 100 div a map then solo players should get 100 div a map. Majority of people in POE play solo anyways because of the glaring issues of group play I will not even get into because GGG knows.

Exactly. The current design violates the core RPG rule of "Risk vs. Reward."
Think about it:
• Solo Play: You take 100% of the aggro. You have zero Aura support. If you die, you lose a portal. (High Risk)
• Group Play: You have an Aurabot giving you 90% max res. You have a Cursebot weakening enemies. You can revive each other. (Low Risk)
Logically, High Risk should yield High Reward.
But in PoE, the Low Risk group (playing on "Easy Mode" with supports) gets the massive Loot Multiplier.
It is completely backwards.
"Playing with friends" should be its own reward (fun, safety, speed). You shouldn't need to bribe players with exponential loot to play together.
If anything, Loot Quantity should be split, not multiplied, to compensate for the trivialized difficulty.