loosing exp

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suutamulumi#5617 schrieb:

In maps (where the actual exp grinding is done) I'd prefer some sort of scale, where the first death is forgiven but you get a "death debuff" which lasts for x amount of time. Could be 1 hour, could be 24. If you die while you have that debuff then you start losing exp. It could increase the more you die.

So, just stop playing this character until the debuff is gone ? Free road to level 100, flawless idea.

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dwqrf#0717 schrieb:

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suutamulumi#5617 schrieb:

In maps (where the actual exp grinding is done) I'd prefer some sort of scale, where the first death is forgiven but you get a "death debuff" which lasts for x amount of time. Could be 1 hour, could be 24. If you die while you have that debuff then you start losing exp. It could increase the more you die.

So, just stop playing this character until the debuff is gone ? Free road to level 100, flawless idea.

If that's what you feel you'd want to do then sure, do that. Remember that time is money and also leagues are typically 3 months long.

There's no such thing as "free road to 100", the exp curve is steep enough that everyone has to work for max level if they want it, with or without exp loss in every type of content.

We also currently have people stopping playing their characters after losing exp on death, so is it good job GGG "flawless idea" there too?

XP loss tries to address legitimate issues but is a blunt and imprecise instrument with some exceedingly bad drawbacks.

For example it actually forces you to go backwards to easier content as you level up whenever your increase in power did not equal your increase in XP/lvl. Let's say you are running basic T15s dying 1/20 maps gain 2 levels but without significant increase in power. Quite suddenly your progress goes from reasonable to zero, because those 20 maps are no longer giving more than 10% XP.

Second, it absolutely kicks players while they are down. Sure, some might get up and be stronger for the experience, but a large % will not. They will just crawl to safety. Which in context means they will stop playing.

Simple solutions:

1. Take the XP loss out and add an XP buff for deathless completions. Adjust XP curve to compensate if required.
2. Only lose XP from that map.

Much like the only things guaranteed in life are death and taxes, in an ARPG XP should be the one guaranteed return on your time investment. Everything else is random. You might not find any upgrades. All your crafts can whiff. XP should be the one safe progression axis so you never feel like your time was completely wasted.

It's not needed as a death disincentive - no player is happy dying 'all the time' (which means very different things to different players). They don't need to be smacked on the head with a hammer every time they die. There are plenty of other good disincentives in the game and they can always add more (or better yet, incentives to staying alive).

It heavily discourages engaging with new content which might be challenging. Instead of a player being excited when they see a challenge ahead they are instead smacked and told not to even dare trying it.

I'm not quite saying it needs to go for me to return and sink a lot of time into this game... but it's by far the biggest disincentive. It exacerbates the other issues with engame content, for me. And I would bet very good money I'm just one of many thousands who feel that way (or more strongly).

If GGG are happy remaining niche but sticking with this type of punishment that's absolutely their choice. But if they really want to broaden their appeal then making a significant change to the XP loss is a no brainer.

At the very least I hope they do what Jonathan mentioned in an interview and change it to only kick in at 90. But that still wouldn't be fun or interesting or incentivise fun gameplay. I really believe they can do better.

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JakkerONAIR#4902 schrieb:

The entitlement to think "Early Access" means that the devs need to develop the game to suit your needs.

self-awareness/10, your input in this discussion is just as (in)valid as everyone else's

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suutamulumi#5617 schrieb:

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dwqrf#0717 schrieb:

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suutamulumi#5617 schrieb:

In maps (where the actual exp grinding is done) I'd prefer some sort of scale, where the first death is forgiven but you get a "death debuff" which lasts for x amount of time. Could be 1 hour, could be 24. If you die while you have that debuff then you start losing exp. It could increase the more you die.

So, just stop playing this character until the debuff is gone ? Free road to level 100, flawless idea.

If that's what you feel you'd want to do then sure, do that. Remember that time is money and also leagues are typically 3 months long.

There's no such thing as "free road to 100", the exp curve is steep enough that everyone has to work for max level if they want it, with or without exp loss in every type of content.

We also currently have people stopping playing their characters after losing exp on death, so is it good job GGG "flawless idea" there too?

So your solution wouldn't change anything ? Noice.

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LeFlesh#9979 schrieb:

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JakkerONAIR#4902 schrieb:

The entitlement to think "Early Access" means that the devs need to develop the game to suit your needs.

self-awareness/10, your input in this discussion is just as (in)valid as everyone else's

Darling, it's not.

My "input" is not like "I feel like" or "REEE remove xp loss".
I tell you why the exp loss is a thing and why GGG wants it to stay.
It's not a topic GGG never thought and talked about, it's already "solved" and communicated.

[Removed by Support] That's a hat-trick!

100% map clears granting a temporary revive token + reduced XP loss are an acceptable compromise to this issue.

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JakkerONAIR#4902 schrieb:

If the exp loss punishment for dying at level 70 is the same as the punishment at level 95 - it stays linear and that's not what the game is about.
The higher you get, the harder it gets. The further you go, the greater the risk. It's that simple.

Only losing exp gained in that map, sure, it's effectively the same, but an experience debt with a cap of 20 or 25% would maintain the current sense of risk without completely negating all progress after a certain point, making it a fairer and less punitive system. Risk is still there regardless, dying is still undesirable. The only reason to maintain the current level of penalty comes off either as a sort of sadism, a sort of elitism, or flat out stubbornness to keep things the same just because "that's how it has been" which is never a good reason (and neither are the two others). It's also not like they can't simply reduce the exp loss penalty to 5%, either, as another possibility. There are options without eliminating the desired effect of risk of loss that are more tolerable and feel fairer.

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 schrieb:

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JakkerONAIR#4902 schrieb:

If the exp loss punishment for dying at level 70 is the same as the punishment at level 95 - it stays linear and that's not what the game is about.
The higher you get, the harder it gets. The further you go, the greater the risk. It's that simple.

Only losing exp gained in that map, sure, it's effectively the same, but an experience debt with a cap of 20 or 25% would maintain the current sense of risk without completely negating all progress after a certain point, making it a fairer and less punitive system. Risk is still there regardless, dying is still undesirable. The only reason to maintain the current level of penalty comes off either as a sort of sadism, a sort of elitism, or flat out stubbornness to keep things the same just because "that's how it has been" which is never a good reason (and neither are the two others). It's also not like they can't simply reduce the exp loss penalty to 5%, either, as another possibility. There are options without eliminating the desired effect of risk of loss that are more tolerable and feel fairer.

Chris Wilson explained years ago why they have a system like the "EXP loss" in place and why they get more "risky/punishing" the higher/further you progress.

To some point, your progress is kinda easy and everything you do and get is a huge gain to your "character power". If you then reach the "breaking point" (with exp loss/levelling around 90) everything you "gain" is not mandatory anymore to clear the entire game, but is connected to a challenge IF you want to min/max.

So you are technically able as a "casual" (however you would define them) to clear most of the game with the progress you can make. Getting to 90, some decent items to farm higher tier maps and kill bosses is totally doable, BUT the hardest/highest content is something you only reach when you invest more than a "casual" would.

That's something ppl can dislike, but it's just how GGG wants to make this game. If you make everything accessible for "casuals" - everyone who is not a "casual" gets bored after day 2.

Like... have you played "Diablo 4"? Trivialising the game was so easy and doable so fast, I was actually impressed how "Blizzard" was able to develop such a nothing-burger of a game.

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dwqrf#0717 schrieb:

So your solution wouldn't change anything ? Noice.

It would for me and probably others, because I don't die frequently usually only once per level. I wouldn't stop playing until the buff ran out, I'd just do lower content for a bit or pay more attention, and not be as salty about losing the map, the node and exp and/or an omen. I think it's a step towards a compromise where "flawless" doesn't exist.

It's good that you've basically admitted the current system isn't flawless either, though.