[2.5] - Occ, LL, Essence Drain // Any Feedback?

There is a simple reason why I didn't calculate anything.
Both Poison and Decay scale with exact same mods (chaos, spell damage, dot).
Decay deals 750 BASE damage per second (before all mods).
With 20/20 gems, average jewels, 21/20 ED and 4lvl Empower poison from Consuming Dark should deal 720-800 BASE damage per second per 1 stack.
If you stack more damage modifiers (like, very good jewels, +25% chaos damage on rings etc., go more offensive in the tree), your poison is doing twice the damage of Decay. No matter if you calculate it before or after spell damage, chaos damage, dot damage etc., in the end it's the same - poison can give you almost twice (possibly more) the increase of damage over decay.

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Bristoling schrieb:

There is a simple reason why I didn't calculate anything.
Both Poison and Decay scale with exact same mods (chaos, spell damage, dot).
Decay deals 750 BASE damage per second (before all mods).
With 20/20 gems, average jewels, 21/20 ED and 4lvl Empower poison from Consuming Dark should deal 720-800 BASE damage per second per 1 stack.
If you stack more damage modifiers (like, very good jewels, +25% chaos damage on rings etc., go more offensive in the tree), your poison is doing twice the damage of Decay. No matter if you calculate it before or after spell damage, chaos damage, dot damage etc., in the end it's the same - poison can give you almost twice (possibly more) the increase of damage over decay.

Are you also considering the fact that decay damage scales with the support gems linked to the skill which applies it? You are considering the ED damage and the poison resulting from the initial ED hit with 20/20 gems, and lvl 4 empower, but you should to the same kind of calculation for decay; a typical decay + poison ED setup has 5 supports (void manip / pierce / controlled destr / rapid decay / slower proj) which scale it to about 2000 BASE damage before gear bonuses or passive / jewel bonuses are taken into account.

The fact that decay does less damage than poison is - in the end - pretty obvious because decay does not stack. But no monster is immune to it, so there is no reason not to take advantage from it. Shaper has a 50% poison / bleed / ignite duration reduction on him, and that is the same for all the guardians. Two of them are even poison immune. Plus, all guardians + shaper have an 80% LESS curse effect on them. This reduces the poison duration dramatically (thus reducing the max possible stacks by a noticeable amount, especially because the typical ED setup doesn't allow that super fast casting or spamming).

No monster is immune to decay. It increases clearspeed pretty dramatically as I can say (first mob you hit with ED dies faster = all the pack dies faster). It's good for single target and if crafted on a Sai you can have 21% block while dual wielding, which is similar to using a shield from the blocking perspective.

I always go for both (poison and decay) in all situations where mobs aren't poison immune. Poison is super good when you can damage while standing still (e.g. Shaper beam), decay is super good when you have to move a lot (e.g. Shaper golden projectiles or teleport smash).

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djnat schrieb:

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Bristoling schrieb:

There is a simple reason why I didn't calculate anything.
Both Poison and Decay scale with exact same mods (chaos, spell damage, dot).
Decay deals 750 BASE damage per second (before all mods).
With 20/20 gems, average jewels, 21/20 ED and 4lvl Empower poison from Consuming Dark should deal 720-800 BASE damage per second per 1 stack.
If you stack more damage modifiers (like, very good jewels, +25% chaos damage on rings etc., go more offensive in the tree), your poison is doing twice the damage of Decay. No matter if you calculate it before or after spell damage, chaos damage, dot damage etc., in the end it's the same - poison can give you almost twice (possibly more) the increase of damage over decay.

Are you also considering the fact that decay damage scales with the support gems linked to the skill which applies it? You are considering the ED damage and the poison resulting from the initial ED hit with 20/20 gems, and lvl 4 empower, but you should to the same kind of calculation for decay; a typical decay + poison ED setup has 5 supports (void manip / pierce / controlled destr / rapid decay / slower proj) which scale it to about 2000 BASE damage before gear bonuses or passive / jewel bonuses are taken into account.

The fact that decay does less damage than poison is - in the end - pretty obvious because decay does not stack. But no monster is immune to it, so there is no reason not to take advantage from it. Shaper has a 50% poison / bleed / ignite duration reduction on him, and that is the same for all the guardians. Two of them are even poison immune. Plus, all guardians + shaper have an 80% LESS curse effect on them. This reduces the poison duration dramatically (thus reducing the max possible stacks by a noticeable amount, especially because the typical ED setup doesn't allow that super fast casting or spamming).

No monster is immune to decay. It increases clearspeed pretty dramatically as I can say (first mob you hit with ED dies faster = all the pack dies faster). It's good for single target and if crafted on a Sai you can have 21% block while dual wielding, which is similar to using a shield from the blocking perspective.

I always go for both (poison and decay) in all situations where mobs aren't poison immune. Poison is super good when you can damage while standing still (e.g. Shaper beam), decay is super good when you have to move a lot (e.g. Shaper golden projectiles or teleport smash).

I'm pretty sure that decay doesn't scales that way. If it would be so - nobody ever even need any other skill.
Don't name something BASE DAMAGE after applying half of modificators, to avoid misunderstandings. There is no need to place support gem modificators with gear/tree modificators in different categories, they all apply at the same time, and by same rules.
Poison is different issue though.
The thing is decay is always 750 base which is scales by modificators, but poison have no stable base of 8% of initial hit, which scales by modificators before poison even was applied, so the more damage you have - the more base damage it have and effectivenes of poison skyrocketing. Known as "double dipping". Poison base damage scaled by initial hit scaling first and then by it's own modificators, decay have much more base damage, but it's not scaling by initial hit. And because double dipping scaling in geometric progression, i agree that at some point it becomes much more damage even from 1 stack.

But my reasoning in choosing decay here are:
1) I'm proud user of bow with soulstrike, lol
2) I'm rather will be moving target than stay in place and ate all the damage in the world. Also, need additional mana flask.
3) All that restrictions on endgame bosses listed above
4) Pretty low base damage of intial hit of ED. It just wasn't designed for poison, really. If i want poison character, i'll go with crit assassin BF/tornado shot with 5-6 times poison damage compared to initial hit, or even more

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Are you also considering the fact that decay damage scales with the support gems linked to the skill which applies it?

Again :)
1. Poison double dips.
2. Poison is dealing 8% of initial hit as damage over time.
3. Your average hit damage with gear shown in OP should be easily around 8-9.5k, depending on jewels, that is 640-760 per second BASE.
4. After that, BOTH poison and decay scale with:
- Pain Attunement
- VM - more chaos damage
- RD - more damage over time
- CD - more spell damage
- Pierce/Slower proj., as it is applied by a projectile.
- passive spell damage, dot damage, chaos damage and projectile damage.
Both decay and poison scale in the same way with both support gems, and skill passives. So the one dealing higher base damage per second will also have to deal higher damage after modifiers. 5*5 will always be smaller then 6*5, and that will be smaller then 7*5.


Both decay and poison are affected by chaos resistance in the same way. Therefore, clearspeed will not be faster with decay, as in normal maps monsters aren't poison resistant - and chaos resistance affects both.
The only time that isn't true, is maybe when you get modifier "monsters have a chance to avoid poison/bleed etc.", and when dealing with 2 out of 4 guardians, but as I said, if you are using ED to farm guardians/shaper instead of running Gorge/Shaped Strand, you are doing something terribly wrong and should pick up some other build.

Anyway, with gems shown above, Essence Drain has effective level of 24, dealing 1227 dot dps per second. If you add Decay, that is 1977, a flat increase of 61%.
Because all the modifiers that affect Poison, also affect Decay in the exact same way, it is easy to estimate true dps using Path of Building or simply math (but PoB is very accurate). We will calculate it with jewels (16% spell damage when holding a shield, 12% projectile damage - pretty average jewel, can be much better).

With equip/gems as in OP, with CD, after curses, ascendancies etc. we get:
- 10055 average hit, 1.49 cast rate, or 0.67 casts per second.
- 10055*1.49=14981 hit dps with continous casting
- 56104 dot dps
- 36765k poison dps with 4.6 poison duration (up to 6.86 poison stacks)
- 36765*6.86=255208 poison dps with continuous casting, totalling 308312 dot dps and 323293 total dps.
For comparison with Decay, using 100% spell damage wand, this will be 59491*1.61=95780 dps.

Against standard boss, this is:
- 8788 hit
- 8788*1.49=13094 hit dps with continous casting
- 40963 dot
- 23487 poison dps with 2.88 poison duration (4.3 stacks)
- 23487*4.3=100994 poison dps with continous casting, totalling 141957 dot dps and 155051 total dps.
Decay: 43436*1.61=69931 dps

Against guardian/shaper:
- 7960 average hit
- 7960*1.49=11860 hit dps with continous casting
- 34709 dot dps
- 18006 poison dps with 1.28 poison duration (1.91 stacks)
- 18006*1.91=34391 poison dps with continous casting, totalling 69100 dot dps and 80960 total dps.
Decay: 36804*1.61=59254 dps.

Why do I calculate Decay as only *1.61? Because 750 is a 61% of 1227 natural dot damage and, since both decay and natural dot damage are increased in exact same fashion, just multiplying it by 1.61 is enough to get accurate value.
Continous casting hit dps is not included in Decay, because it isn't much of a necessity with fixed ED/Decay duration, while it is neccessary for applying poison stacks. Not that it makes any big difference anyway.

Decay is better if you are just starting the league and your jewels are 19/0 or worse, if you are low level and don't have much bonuses from the tree, or if you don't plan on min/maxing and prefer to roll with Decay because it's hipster.
Poison is vastly superior once you get decent gear and 80+ level (just hit those 20 level gems and you'll be doing twice the damage with CD then Decay).
Decay is great on Bow build with Soul Strike where there aren't any inherent sources of poison and Decay is the only option, or dual wield for a bit of extra damage, that's it.

OP asked about feedback, presenting 1h/Shield setup, so here's my feedback - if you are doing tri-curse 1h/sh ED/Contagion, just roll with Consuming Dark for double damage against map bosses and almost tripple damage against yellow rare bosses.

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Med1umentor schrieb:

I'm pretty sure that decay doesn't scales that way. If it would be so - nobody ever even need any other skill.
Don't name something BASE DAMAGE after applying half of modificators, to avoid misunderstandings. There is no need to place support gem modificators with gear/tree modificators in different categories, they all apply at the same time, and by same rules.

I am pretty sure that decay scales that way. Try to use path of building - which separates effective decay damage from other damage sources - and you'll see that disabling an ED support lowers the decay output significantly.

I am calling it BASE damage because in his previous post, Bristoling called it BASE poison damage after all gear / support modifiers (without counting poison stacking and double dipping). Just for comparison, I perfectly know that isn't the base damage of decay (which is 750 per second).

We all agree poison is superior because of the possible stacking and because of double dipping. Without the double dipping (which will be removed from the game in 3.0) poison would be superior, when compared to decay, only with heavy stacking. And probably not when comapred to decay.

To resume my thoughts:

1. There is no reason to go 1h + shield for ED, unless you are facing a poison immune target or you are going with cospri's will (or you play HC and prioritize survivability before damage)
2. Decay is a very good mod for ED, it scales very well and it increases single target DPS by a 49-83% factor against poison immune mobs, depending by ED gem setup.
3. I am NOT claiming any superiority of decay over poison. They are just both good for ED and should be used together at (nearly) all times.

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djnat schrieb:

I am pretty sure that decay scales that way. Try to use path of building - which separates effective decay damage from other damage sources - and you'll see that disabling an ED support lowers the decay output significantly.

Read my post one more time, i said exactly that. It's just from your words anybody will think that decay also double dipping, and i said that it's not scaling that way, and there is no way to raise that BASE damage. Of course i know that it scaling with modificators and support of skills, and that's i also said before.

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djnat schrieb:

I am calling it BASE damage because in his previous post, Bristoling called it BASE poison damage after all gear / support modifiers (without counting poison stacking and double dipping). Just for comparison, I perfectly know that isn't the base damage of decay (which is 750 per second).

Well, of course in poison case - it's exactly BASE damage. It's not scaled from modifiers, it just come from initial hit that was scaled by modifiers, but that entire different story. If not, then what damage of poison you will call BASE then? It's pretty obvious to everyone, that base damage will be 8% from already scaled initial hit, but before poison itself scaled. In decay case - it's not viable, base damage always the same and easy to read.

Your post about 2000+ decay base damage will only create more misunderstandings. Cause for starters it's not base damage at all, and additionally it's not final damage also. That's why i told you that there is no point to separate scaling from tree/gear, and scaling from support gems, cause they are interacting exactly the same and at the same time, meaning they are in the same group, whenever it's "increase" or "more".

Haha ok, we are just saying the same thing, but in a different way.

You are right btw, especially for new players it can be misunderstood.

Havent checked in poe or the forum quiet a while ( due to university ewww :/)
Anyway.
You all calculate the posion as if you could just facetank every single mob and never have the need to dodge.. decay somewhat outshines poison taking that into account.(Doing for example Hydra I usually apply a new ED once the previous ran out)
I have done ALL guardians and Shaper and for whatever reason decay worked way better.
To be clear the highest damage setup is : Decay Dagger+Consuming Dark+(+1 gems shavronnes xD) .
For mapping i am currently using a Rarity gem (PogChamp) and i honestly have the exact same clearspeed as if i wouldnt.
Also i got to reconsider bow+soulstrike vs wand+shield which once my char goes to standard.
its a +1 decay bow with +30% inc dot vs decay wand+shield with a total of 202 Spell damage.
I really like the 20%less damage taken from damage over time that i can craft on a shield with the overall higher blockchance and ES. And Vaal Discpline somewhat makes Soulstrike obsolet (for mapping/facetanking an entire Breach that is.)
Btw I have somewhat changed my gear+tree a little.
For the tree : took flask nodes+templar inc aoe node ( unskilled the chaos damage node near ci and the life/es node below that)
Also: I have started to lvl this build using a Skin of the Loyal with the desired colors (1.5ex at that time). The +1 to gems is really great and almost as good as going Lowlife (only considering the dps).
I am starting the new league as an ED again and i may try to get my very own +1 shavs ;) ~1/32 or smth like that.

Any tips for someone who decided to start a new league with this build?

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Bristoling schrieb:

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Are you also considering the fact that decay damage scales with the support gems linked to the skill which applies it?

Again :)
1. Poison double dips.
2. Poison is dealing 8% of initial hit as damage over time.
3. Your average hit damage with gear shown in OP should be easily around 8-9.5k, depending on jewels, that is 640-760 per second BASE.
4. After that, BOTH poison and decay scale with:
- Pain Attunement
- VM - more chaos damage
- RD - more damage over time
- CD - more spell damage
- Pierce/Slower proj., as it is applied by a projectile.
- passive spell damage, dot damage, chaos damage and projectile damage.
.

Do you know what double dipping means?
Small example... all i have in my tree is 100% inc. Chaos damage.
I have a Essence drain linked with Poison. nothing else
Now the 100% inc. Chaos damage will scale with my ED resulting in a higher Poison damage due to ED having an inc. Base damage.
The same 100% scale with the poison again!.
That beeing said. It does NOT double dip with spell damage!!!!!!
Poision (for Essence drain) double dips with : inc dot, inc projectile damage, inc chaos damage and inc. damage.(source poe.wiki).
Decay on the other Hand scales with all(!) the mods your Essence drain scales aswell.
So Decay does scale with Spell damage!
So you got to compare a 750dot that scales with everything.
With a XXX poison that doesnt scale with inc. Spell damage and your more Spelldamage multis.
So decay may actually be just as good (depending on your jewels/gear-> how much inc./more Spell damage you have) as 2-3 Stacks of Poison. While also allowing you to have more room to dodge/move due to the overall higher duration.