Why GGG doesn't recommend SSF campaign for new players? (very 1st playthrough on account)

Campaign should be teaching players mechanics, gear acquisition, defense layers etc. whats the point of it if you can bypass all those sweet sweet learning opportunities with trade tier DPS?

Then we have the part that SSF is way more manageable since you only deal with stuff you found, instead of dealing with 100+ uniques, which can all interact with each other. That's even a major part why i play ssf myself, can't even imagine how overwhelming this would be to a newcomer.

that said, campaign would need an option to gear for resistances upon failing the boss of each act.
reforge: any ring, blue gem, aug = cold res ring (sapphire) etc. getting reses high enough should make these fights easier but not trivial (no phase skipping).

And sure I'm biased but this post gives a perspective of a player that switched to ssf eventually:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3750182

imo the whole campaign feels like its tailor made for ssf playthrough, so why not recommend that mode? any thoughts?

edit: maybe soft lock on trade till maps? it would allow party play (with lvl scaling).
or maybe address the difference between player power early on which is absurd even for my ssf twinks.

certainly a weird situation where the entire campaign (mechanics, boss fights, mob types, skill interactions, defenses) can be entirely ignored if you have high dps weapon or caster equivalent.

I totally agree with you that ssf is the best way to learn how to play the game, since this forces the player to be self sufficient. If the player encounters problem with a boss, the player cannot ask other players to kill the boss for him/her. The player has to search the internet for advice and learn the mechanics.

I do not think ggg wll recommend ssf because there might be players who want to party up with friends and family members.

If the dev recommend ssf, this might also give the general public a bad impression and then people will complain ggg is encouraging people to be antisocial and stuff like that.

POE 2 doesn't have extensive form of target loot system. You can play Diablo 4, last epoch solo without trading and be fine.

SSF in PoE2 is self gimp, like driving but not go over 3rd gear. GGG is right. GGG is design with trading as a cole system, not a "nice to have". For SSF to be viable (not self gimped), then viable form of target farming in needed in place.

POE 2 (& PoE) are mostly a solo online game with trading.

Because both games have always been designed with trade as the central pillar of development, and SSF has always been an optional extra difficult challenge mode so it's the opposite of new player friendly.

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stkmro#2432 schrieb:

I totally agree with you that ssf is the best way to learn how to play the game, since this forces the player to be self sufficient. If the player encounters problem with a boss, the player cannot ask other players to kill the boss for him/her. The player has to search the internet for advice and learn the mechanics.

I do not think ggg wll recommend ssf because there might be players who want to party up with friends and family members.

If the dev recommend ssf, this might also give the general public a bad impression and then people will complain ggg is encouraging people to be antisocial and stuff like that.

good point about party play. which reminds me when I tried that in 0.1. First play session was lots of fun, but next play session the friend decided to buy a bow from the market and proceeded to one shot packs with a support sill (lighting rods), which left my melee monk not even fast enough to get to the packs. lasted 1h and decided i will just play my ssf chars lol. which now makes me think what a party play would even look like here.

maybe soft lock on trade till maps? (i think they already have something like that at lvl 25)

or maybe address the difference between player power early on which is absurd even for my ssf twinks.

certainly a weird situation where the entire campaign (mechanics, boss fights, mob types, skill interactions, defenses) can be entirely ignored if you have high dps weapon or caster equivalent.

Recommending SSF to new players is unnecessary because of how player-power is achieved in this game in the context of *why* people play the game.

The "top-end" of trade league build-potential is practically unavailable to SSF players (in the most literal sense of the word practical) because the items and affixes which would enable an ultimate min-maxed level of power are gated behind heavy levels of RNG. Heavy enough that the only practical and reliable way to mitigate it is through trading.

This, in turn, functions as a "soft" ceiling on player power in SSF leagues. To most new players, something like this feels unnecessary for more than one reason:

1. New players have probably seen a few videos of endgame content by a powerfully built player to sell them on the game, and it's likely that their decision to install is directly related to their desire to cosplay as an all-powerful monster-demolisher similar to whatever videos they've watched. Choosing SSF is in direct misalignment with this desire, no matter if they understand what is really meant by trade/SSF or not, because it will just seem unnecessary. Some players might even scoff at joining a "league" - they just want a no-frills kill-monsters experience and/or keep defaults enabled because they - again - have no idea what that option really means anyways.

2. New players are already limited by their own (mis)understandings and (lack of) knowledge to the point where they frequently struggle to achieve a satisfactory level of player power even in a trade league without following a guide. They will use end-game guides which appear powerful in order to orient themselves to the game, and a trade league will allow them to efficiently and reliably acquire any "required" uniques or gear-types during this orientation period. This direct aspect of gear acquisition is experienced as the lynch-pin to progress and subsequently the enjoyment of their gaming session.

3. I also think most new players probably don't trade ever. If they do, it's probably not until having likely finished the campaign in a SSF-manner already, regardless of league choice - so a recommendation is not going to affect a "new" player experience anyways.

Only a special kind of player looking for a challenge is going to choose SSF right out of the gate, and although many of these types of players are drawn to games like this one specifically because the opportunity for such a challenge exists, they are a relative minority.

Even experienced players who "main" SSF have been known to eventually move their end-game characters into trade league because the only progress they see left on their character is by spending the entirety of their SSF farmed-currency on a handful of giga-GG ultra-rare upgrades and/or obscene amounts of crafting omens. Or to trade away a mirror - which for the same reasons I've stated, only has practical utility in a trade league.

I think players which stay in SSF at high levels or who otherwise "main" SSF have goals which are superordinate to min-maxing character power potential, and these kinds of goals although not unheard of in new players, are usually relegated to veterans.

I also think that the reason SSF advocates often report that it is more satisfying is because the "soft" ceiling for player-power leaves more room for player-skill to emerge as a contributing factor to successfully achieving those superordinate goals - and success always feels more satisfying to earn through effort rather than through purchasing.

This is not to say that this sort of thing can't or doesn't exist in trade league, just that it's enforced within a SSF league.

TLDR; New players don't need recommendations because they don't have the context to understand any recommendations. They're usually just here to kill monsters and nwe players that are here to masochistically challenge themselves don't need a recommendation either - they will seek it out.

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karsey#2995 schrieb:

TLDR; New players don't need recommendations because they don't have the context to understand any recommendations. They're usually just here to kill monsters and nwe players that are here to masochistically challenge themselves don't need a recommendation either - they will seek it out.

that's a good point, altho i was addressing the campaign as a tutorial of sort for players.
i just don't think the intended campaign playthrough was phase skipping and one shotting packs, and more like campaign was designed around ssf, rather than ssf being a challenge here.
The former used to belong to alt char like 'twinks' that needed specific gear to achieve this kind of power early on. this might be a combo of over tuned early rare items with how easy the trade has become these days.

I wouldn't do that considering all the casual/people complaining about difficulty, the game has to be welcoming in some way and SSF is more for advanced players who know the game already, ironically.

my guess is at least 95% of new players play ssf anyway. not the league, they just dont trade. i think 95% of veteran traders also dont trade during the campaign, they just blast to endgame.



so i dont rly think it achieves anything positive, new people for the most wont understand how to trade or even why they would want to. most people who are not trading are just in trade league playing the game and not trading.

by putting people in a forced ssf league condition is means if they tell their friend and they come play, ooopps, sry cant have friends cant enjoy the game together. you need help and you talk to ppl in general chat sry, they cant come and help you with anything. to be able to do any of that youve got to transition your entire account over to another league?



why do that to people? why put people in that position?


i think playing sf is great. i think ssf league is mostly awful, the only reason it needs to exist is for bragging rights. its there so a streamer can prove they didnt go trade for items off stream while claiming to be ssf, or so you can brag in a forum you are ssf and prove it. maybe for people with no self control? they need the mode to be forced or they will cave in and 'cheat' on their self imposed ruleset?


you dont need an ssf league to be self found and most people who are not trading are not in the ssf league. i think ssf should be hidden as far away as possible so that the only people who use that league are vets who really understand what they are doing and why. anyone else should not be putting themselves into that little box. yes play self found but dont write off the idea of ever having friends and playing the game with them because youve now invested into incel basementcore where spending time with other humans is banned and you dont want to split your game between 2 seperate sets of stashes/characters.

once ppl get invested its building a wall and actually a lot of people come to poe to play a game by themselves, kill some mobs and find some cool items, but then make friends, find they enjoy trading, get into guilds make serious long term friends and come back every season for the economy, it brings value to their game. thats how a lot of vets play poe1 and i dont think many of them came to poe to be traders, but it happened to them because there wasnt a barrier stopping them trying it.



ssf is quite a final decision, youre putting up walls you then have to bring down. some people argue you shouldnt even be able to bring them down which is even worse. trade league doesnt force you to trade or group up, you can have a totally single player experience there and i think most people in trade league do. ssf is like a marriage, you can get out of it but you are making a long term commitment that comes with serious restrictions about whats acceptable for how you act and what you enjoy in life moving forward.

having said all that dont get me wrong, i absolutely agree with the premiss of the op that self found is the best way for someone to learn the game and should be how most new players playk 100% agree with that all day. i just have a feeling they already do play that way in trade league.