Game Design and Player Expectations: A Divide in Perspectives

Hey all, just thought I'd share some thoughts/feedback about PoE2 here based off my own playtime and my analysis of other discussions I've seen about the game. I tried posting this on the PoE2 subreddit but for whatever reason the mods didn't approve my post for 11 hours and my post was buried under the several dozens of posts that made it first before mine within that time frame: https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/comments/1inzyp3/game_design_and_player_expectations_a_divide_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Anyways, here's my discussion as written in my original reddit post:


Before I begin, I want to preface that no this is not another post complaining about endgame, although I will be mentioning some of the common arguments made about it. In this way, this post will be something like a "meta-analysis" of other posts concerning endgame.

On launch, Path of Exile2 undoubtedly surpassed the expectations of both Grinding Gear Games and its community in terms of how much additional player base it would draw. While Path of Exile 1 had a peak player count of 229,337, Path of Exile 2 boasts more than double, sitting at 578,569. Despite Path of Exile 2 being in its infancy with early access, it has already appealed to a very wide audience, both old players and new players alike, whether you’re familiar with ARPGs or not. However, the game doesn’t come without its issues, and it is evident that the endgame has been somewhat of a controversial topic both here in the subreddit and in other forums. In contrast to the campaign, the endgame takes on a starkly different pace, creating a dichotomy of expectations in people that enjoy the pacing of the campaign and people that enjoy the pacing of endgame. In this discussion, I will be summarizing the perspectives of both sides of this argument, how GGG’s explicit game philosophy has aligned with either side, and a discussion of what potentially needs to happen going forward.

People in favour of the endgame enjoy the typical ARPG “power fantasy” style of gameplay which generally means reaching a point of the game where a character is so strong that they can clear content easily and quickly. In this way, skill is expressed through theory crafting builds, min-maxing, manipulation of league mechanics, and navigating the economy. To most ARPG players, these elements along with the game philosophy of grinding for gear and stat increases is quintessential to the genre. Here are some examples on the subreddit of people arguing in favour of this style of gameplay:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/comments/1he315m/comment/m21g0et/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/comments/1im1lpu/comment/mbzwhmv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/comments/1hd152v/comment/m1svl35/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/comments/1i7fude/comment/m8kpyxc/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

GGG recognizes this and in an interview with Kripparrian, Jonathan describes the “slower gameplay” as something that players ascribe a little too much to their “demos” prior to launch. He then explains that there should be “at least a 10x disparity between the “good” top 1% of players to the “bad” median player” in terms of progression and pacing in the endgame. Pacing should still be “relatively high” even if it isn’t as high as it is in PoE1 because it is important for players to feel like “they are breaking the game”. In this sense, Jonathan’s core game philosophy is aligned with the typical ARPG experience and veteran PoE1 players. (Source: https://youtu.be/79kgVK3XGuk?si=LgHRo3iaJ5m1Hy2a&t=3444)

However, in the exact same interview he also says that it’s important that when the average player tunes into a stream of PoE2 that showcases “what the top 1%” looks like, that their first reaction isn’t, “What is even going on the screen? There is no visual clarity, I can’t even tell what’s going on and the boss melts in 2 seconds”. To Jonathan, that type of gameplay “isn’t very good either” and in another interview he mentions that “it’s always very interesting to see what people outside of the PoE community have to say about the game” (Source: https://youtu.be/dsrIEWXPHlo?si=FS46V0nemtwS5RbD&t=928). Instead, PoE2 is GGG’s “effort to make combat feel much better” especially when one of the predominant comments that they’ve seen about PoE1 has been that “the combat is so dated and bad”. It is interesting for them to see this alternative perspective because “this is the kind of stuff we can potentially improve in order to get it better.” Jonathan goes on to say that he loves action games and that part of the vision for PoE2 is to “make a decent action game” and that he “wants the best of both worlds”. He wants the game to “feel like an ARPG, as far as stats and loot go” but “that he also wants the game to be approached like an action game, where you have mechanics such as dodging, wind-up animations, and boss mechanics that need to be overcome with play-skill.” Thus, it is important that “combat doesn’t feel trivialized” and is instead meaningful, where “dying to bosses multiple times” should be common. Even outside of Jonathan’s perspective, it seems GGG even invited internet personalities like “Iron Pineapple” to play/sponsor the game on the premise that it’s “souls-like”(Source: https://youtu.be/P6FlsTetZgY?si=aES31y88iCsU74Un ).

This “play-skill” and “methodical” gameplay, as Jonathan describes, is what the expectation of people on the other side of the endgame dichotomy are arguing for. To them past game design and hallmarks of the ARPG genre are not as quintessential as veteran ARPG players think. Trade economy, league mechanics, min-maxing, are all secondary to the combat-based gameplay loop which should be engaging and challenging as a skill, knowledge and reaction check. In this perspective, the ultimate grind towards “power fantasy” takes a backseat for the value placed in complex combat. Here are some examples on this subreddit of people arguing in favour of this style of gameplay:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/comments/1i7fude/people_already_love_poe1_let_poe2_be_different/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/comments/1hlrudw/straight_to_the_point_campaign_is_awesome_but/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/comments/1hk7pmw/comment/m3dl059/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So which side of the argument has reasonable expectations for the game? Considering how conflicting GGG’s own game philosophy for PoE2 has been, as showcased in their interviews, I think it’s fair to say that all expectations have been reasonable. While GGG seemingly wants to retain core ARPG values and allow for both power fantasy and huge disparity in progression tied to build and item knowledge checks, it is completely at odds with their vision to have “slower” combat-based gameplay loop that feels like an “action game”. How is it possible to have meaningful combat that requires “dying to the bosses” multiple times when penalties for dying in the endgame are so punishing? How can you keep traditional ARPG values that showcase the disparity between top1% of players to the median player when you nerf overperforming builds and lessen the diversity of power fantasy? While GGG wants the best of both worlds for PoE2, both styles of gameplay seem almost incompatible and while the game is in early access, I think it’s important that both sides of the argument are heard and that the feedback is taken seriously. To accomplish their vision, it will take a lot more reflection of what makes a typical “ARPG” and what makes a typical “souls-like” game. This is especially evident when in one of the same interviews in a discussion about Elden Ring, Jonathan questions, “why do people in PoE2’s closed beta keep slamming their face against a boss instead of going off to do something else to get stronger”? While yes, getting stronger is part of games like Elden Ring, “slamming one’s face” against a boss is equally a quintessential part of souls-like games, and Jonathan seemingly misses the mark here. Overall, expectations of the players cannot be at fault when GGG has tried to appeal to both audiences and I think most players are curious as to how they will bridge these 2 genres.

At the end of the day this is a hard problem. There are no easy answers here and it may be impossible to please both parties in the same game. They can attempt to make separate difficulties or games within the game that favor both playstyles, but the game is too complex to achieve this in their paradigm.

I do not envy the game designers who are asked to achieve this vision, and I don't really think it is realistic to achieve. I hope they prove me wrong.

I really believe that this vision could be archived, but they need to give up a lot of things that came from poe 1, if they want Bosses to like a souls like they need to buff then a lot so 99% of builds wont be able to kill then in less than 1m, but also they need to remove punishment from bosses and deaths, like in the souls like game where the max you lose is currency that can be easily farmed or storaged. They also need to give the players a way to feels "god-like" except against bosses, so they need to give the players a sense of achievement when killing multiple monster, so they need to make mobs more tankier so we can feel the progression of our power/build, but also not making the gameplay boring and exhausting, so removing quick deaths.
Ironically they have done the opposite with this "EA League 0", where most bosses are just IK while most players just are dying by normals mobs with powerful modifiers.

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I really believe that this vision could be archived, but they need to give up a lot of things that came from poe 1

Honestly, I want to believe this too! I really like both genres and, while both genres of games are seemingly at odds with each other, I want to believe that GGG can satisfy both groups. If you think of ARPGs and souls-like on opposite ends of a spectrum, I think they can meet a middle ground.

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Lost towers and tablets are basically "boring prerequisite quests" the game forces upon you if you want to tackle harder and more rewarding content

I hope they will make lot more strategic interaction on Atlas. So that running maps will MEAN something for the Atlas itself. Elder/Shaper war was quite cool in POE1 and I think this is a cool theme to significantly improve.

Running maps just for getting xp/gear just to kill some endgame bosses is too outdated. This concept as core endgame was outdated even 10 years ago.